Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[james t kirk]

The easy answer would be to ask what their private sector equivalents would get paid (e.g. greyhound drives, private sector welders, maybe movie ticket sellers for the subway collectors etc.)
In the case of jobs that don’t have a clear private sector equivalents (e.g. police, fire) or in case an argument is made that public employees face different working conditions (e.g. maybe TTC bus drivers have more hassles to put up with than Greyhound drives), one could look at the waiting list to get a job and the turnover once in the job. Some years ago, such a study was done in New York city. At the time, it was found that many more people applied for jobs than there were openings and the turnover rate was extremely low compared to labour market averages. Both indicated that people are a getting much better deal than other workers (admittedly, the numbers would now be out of date). I strongly suspect that if you check, you will find that the city of Toronto gets many more applications for their unskilled positions than they have openings and that turnover is pretty low.

Someone mentioned the problem of contracting out when only a few firms would have the necessary equipment to collect garbage. This is sometime called the holdup problem and it should be remembered that in this case the problem goes both ways. The private contractor is depended on the city for contract renewals. If the equipment is that specialized, it is not worth much to him if the city calls him on his bluff. Moreover, it should be easy to find out what private garbage collection costs in Etobicoke are and compare costs per ton or some such measure. In addition, a comparison of days lost due to contract disputes would be important.

I ask because I work with the professionals at TTC and the Trades people.

I can assure that the professionals are underpaid in comparison to the private sector, though they do have pensions and they do get paid for their overtime which the private sector typically does not.

I don't have much exposure to the workers at TTC though.

 

[The Options Menu]

The easy answer would be to ask what their private sector equivalents would get paid (e.g. greyhound drives, private sector welders, maybe movie ticket sellers for the subway collectors etc.)
In the case of jobs that don’t have a clear private sector equivalents (e.g. police, fire) or in case an argument is made that public employees face different working conditions (e.g. maybe TTC bus drivers have more hassles to put up with than Greyhound drives), one could look at the waiting list to get a job and the turnover once in the job. Some years ago, such a study was done in New York city. At the time, it was found that many more people applied for jobs than there were openings and the turnover rate was extremely low compared to labour market averages. Both indicated that people are a getting much better deal than other workers (admittedly, the numbers would now be out of date). I strongly suspect that if you check, you will find that the city of Toronto gets many more applications for their unskilled positions than they have openings and that turnover is pretty low.
Someone mentioned the problem of contracting out when only a few firms would have the necessary equipment to collect garbage. This is sometime called the holdup problem and it should be remembered that in this case the problem goes both ways. The private contractor is depended on the city for contract renewals. If the equipment is that specialized, it is not worth much to him if the city calls him on his bluff. Moreover, it should be easy to find out what private garbage collection costs in Etobicoke are and compare.

On garbage: Unless the city either retains the capacity to cover one private firm in a pinch, or only leases the trucks (Which would get hawked by the first Conservative in power)-- Whatever private firm can make on offer that's pretty damn hard to refuse (or refuse. ). A new private firm either has to buy the trucks 'new' or pick them up off the old firm. Either way that's a big capital outlay (that takes time to sort), requires production orders (that takes big time to deliver), or means that you're buying a used fleet (from a private firm that would be doing their best to stretch the lives of the trucks in the fist place and would drop maintenance to the minimum acceptable level once the was no new contract).

That makes things very icky for new firms to get in if the first firms in got the trucks. Hence the offer you can't refuse.

The difference between paying that offer, and paying Union workers is that your average Union schlub is spending 90% of their money back in the community. You could make the argument that after a decade of private sector tax cutting that higher public sector wages pretty much translates to a direct subsidy of domestic private sector firms. More so than a rich guy buying municipal bonds for the city of Berlin. (But the way, if you had the money to by municipal bonds for a mid to large sized Eurozone city 3 years ago you'd be laughing like a pirate.)

As far as lower turnover indicating overpay goes. Lower turnover is generally considered a 'good' thing. It's underperforming / incompetent employees, technological change aversion, and quotas that don't represent a sustained rate of work that are... and labour has legitimate beefs as well. There's plenty of room for quid pro quo reform, the problem is that all of the invested parties operate on the fringes that makes for an incoherent whole. (And nobody should expect one side to cave outright because you'd be stupid to do so.)

 

[train]

picket lines!!! We had protests in Toronto that blocked a major highway
and University avenue it was illigel, this is a legal strike protest.

It's a legal strike with illegal activities by picketers. They are just acting like the scumbags that they are

Fortunately, I don't live in the city and am not affected by the strike. I say that the City of Toronto should post the home addresses of the garbage workers union so that the other residents blocked from the disposing of their garbage in the proper manner could make deliveries to these ass hats.

Cheers

Sounds like a wonderful idea. At a minimum you should picket their houses and not let them out of their driveway.

 

[buckwheat1]

one can protest on any sidewalk in this country legally. We don't do anything with those who block our roads and bridges illegally now.

 

[someone]

On garbage: Unless the city either retains the capacity to cover one private firm in a pinch, or only leases the trucks (Which would get hawked by the first Conservative in power)-- Whatever private firm can make on offer that's pretty damn hard to refuse (or refuse. ). A new private firm either has to buy the trucks 'new' or pick them up off the old firm. Either way that's a big capital outlay (that takes time to sort), requires production orders (that takes big time to deliver), or means that you're buying a used fleet (from a private firm that would be doing their best to stretch the lives of the trucks in the fist place and would drop maintenance to the minimum acceptable level once the was no new contract).
That makes things very icky for new firms to get in if the first firms in got the trucks. Hence the offer you can't refuse.

You missed my point entirely. I suggest you reread the post. The fact is that the holdup problem goes both ways in this case but is arguably worse for the firm. The fact is that it would be very costly for the firm to have invested in a lot of capital that can’t use because they don’t come to an agreement. I suggest you also google the term ”hold up problem” .

BTW, the is no reason to give a single firm the contract for the entire city anywhere. As far as collection is concerned, there are unlikely to be many economies of scale. In a city like Toronto, I am sure you could have dozens of firms.

The difference between paying that offer, and paying Union workers is that your average Union schlub is spending 90% of their money back in the community. You could make the argument that after a decade of private sector tax cutting that higher public sector wages pretty much translates to a direct subsidy of domestic private sector firms. More so than a rich guy buying municipal bonds for the city of Berlin. (But the way, if you had the money to by municipal bonds for a mid to large sized Eurozone city 3 years ago you'd be laughing like a pirate.)

It would be nice if you actually provided some evidence instead of just repeating union propaganda. If you use google scholar you will find a number of academic studies that have been done. If you provide some numbers from a good source, I might take your argument more seriously.

As far as lower turnover indicating overpay goes. Lower turnover is generally considered a 'good' thing.

Not at any cost it is not. It is not as if we are talking about a job with a lot of firm specific human capital. Training new workers on a regular basis is going to be a lot cheaper than paying very inflated wages.

 

[oldjones]

This might be a useful forum for citizens to debate the issues behind the strike, but there are still too many hotheads blazing away with both barrels and sucking up the bandwidth.

No body gives up their paycheque to walk a picket line for fun or spite.

 

[train]

We don't do anything with those who block our roads and bridges illegally now.

So you think its perfectly alright to do this , even though you admit it is illegal - just because someone else did it ?

Do actually understand the difference between right and wrong ?

 

[squash500]

How the fuck can the TTC be an essential service, but garbage collection not? I say we inundate the Department of Health with phone calls, until this gets resolved. I just thank god my kids are out of diapers and I have nothing really stinky to throw out.

I agree with you A1 . Garbage collection should definitely be an essential service!

 

[train]

This might be a useful forum for citizens to debate the issues behind the strike, but there are still too many hotheads blazing away with both barrels and sucking up the bandwidth.

No body gives up their paycheque to walk a picket line for fun or spite.

Ok the issues have been discussed earlier, if you want to bring up any new ones why don't you do so instead of out blowharding the blowhards as is your usual fashion.

I suppose you must be at a loss on this one since you can't blame your usual favourites.

So here is your chance to give us your insight on the issues. The floor is yours.

 

[Rockslinger]

No body gives up their paycheque to walk a picket line for fun or spite.

I saw the same CTV phone-in segment as that other TERBIE. All 3 unionists who called said they don't want the strike. They were forced into the strike by a couple of unions that are as democratic as Islamic Iran.

BTW The garbage collection in NYC is controlled by the mafia. Book off work for 10 days and they break one of your legs. Book off work for 18-20 days and Tony S. will personally break both your legs. Meanwhile, Miller will probably kiss your ass.

 

[5hummer]

I just saw on the news that people are being turned away from the garbage drop-off location. The city had announced that people could use that site to drop off their own garbage but the workers are not letting people/cars pass the picket line!! They were even prohibiting a car to leave!!! WTF!

This just makes the Union look bad.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

It's bad enough that they have decided to strike and leave garbage uncollected in the summertime, but it's altogether different when they picket parking lots, garbage depots and other locations. You want to inconvenience us twice, then here's my solution:


New locations for garbage depots/dumps:

Toronto Civic Employees Union, Local 416: 110 Laird Drive, Toronto ON M4G 3V3

Canadian Union of Public Employees Ontario Division: 305 Milner Ave. Suite 801 Scarborough, Ontario M1B 3V4

 

[Captain Fantastic]

LMAO but i like these locations for drop offs LOL

but becareful some people have already been charged $380 per ticket for illegal dumping.

Ok then, thanks for the heads-up - my advice then is to make sure to wear a burka when making your "deposit."

 

[The Options Menu]

The difference between paying that offer, and paying Union workers is that your average Union schlub is spending 90% of their money back in the community. You could make the argument that after a decade of private sector tax cutting that higher public sector wages pretty much translates to a direct subsidy of domestic private sector firms. More so than a rich guy buying municipal bonds for the city of Berlin. (But the way, if you had the money to by municipal bonds for a mid to large sized Eurozone city 3 years ago you'd be laughing like a pirate.)

It would be nice if you actually provided some evidence instead of just repeating union propaganda. If you use google scholar you will find a number of academic studies that have been done. If you provide some numbers from a good source, I might take your argument more seriously.

Hmm. Union or not the notion the middle class wages and below are prone to getting spent 'locally' more so than with people / entities with vast pools of money is easy enough to prove. All you need to do is check average household spending breakdowns in Canada. What % of that is savings, investments, and travel abroad? Compare that to securing the basic necessities of life, and money spent on local goods (often produced elsewhere but sold here) and services. IF YOU HAVE NO / LITTLE DISCRETIONARY INCOME, BY DEFAULT YOUR SPENDING IS LOCAL. You can't buy municipal bonds for the city of Berlin. Period. Cause you got no money and no place to go.

That money percolates back into the local small business sector to a far greater degree than anything else, and it tends to only percolate into national and multi-national firms that have a local presence. It has a 'good multiplier' pretty much by definition because it has no other place it can actually go. For that matter heavily used infrastructure also has a good economic multiplier in the way, oh say, military spending doesn't. (Mind you that's no reason to pay the grossly unproductive or incompetent. Management has a right to expect productive labour.)

When it comes to the profits of a large firm some is spent locally, some is spent nationally, and some is spent internationally, but not nearly in the same ratio that labour (Union or non) spends its wages.

 

[Anynym]

Most modern unions understand the value of what the City of Toronto is proposing: that it is in the best interests of both the workers and the employers to get someone well who might fall sick. And that it is against the best interests of the employees to have a large "sick bank" which ends up encouraging sick employees to simply stay sick and not get healthy again.

Instead of a "sick bank", enlightened unions go for "reasonable" limits to sick days (at 100% of pay), and then cross over into short-term and long-term disability programs which provide the support necessary to get healthy.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Instead of a "sick bank", enlightened unions go for "reasonable" limits to sick days (at 100% of pay), and then cross over into short-term and long-term disability programs which provide the support necessary to get healthy.

My (incredibly large) employer does this. Very effective at trimming the fakers. Nothing puts an end to fake sick days than being officially labelled a "cripple", although in more politically correct terms of course. As well, at the end of the rehabilitation program, the employee is not guaranteed the same job in the same location. He is guaranteed as similar a job as possible, given whatever his new medical category is. This is not done to embarass or discourage the worker from getting treatment, but to ensure that the company is able to continue producing while the employee is being rehabilitated. A balance is required between caring for the worker and ensuring the company remains viable. At the end of it, the company can still produce, and the employee is healthy and employed.

 

[JohnLarue]

In this economic environment, they have a great deal of nerve striking.

Simple solution, fire them all.

There are a lot of unemployed employees from the auto parts suppliers.
I am sure 100% of the required replacement could be found at a rate in-line with the skill level required & at a reasonable but generous benefit package including a reasonable number of non-bankable sick days (slightly above the private sector standard).

Bottom line is I am getting tired of unions who expect me to pay (through my taxes) whatever they feel they deserve.

Go out in the private sector & see what the real world is all about, give your head a shake and vote on this strike action again

 

[JohnLarue]

I'm just curious what you think a TTC worker should be paid?
QUOTE]

Less

 

[JohnLarue]

I just saw on the news that people are being turned away from the garbage drop-off location. The city had announced that people could use that site to drop off their own garbage but the workers are not letting people/cars pass the picket line!! They were even prohibiting a car to leave!!! WTF!

Seriously... these idiots should visit my country and realize that they have it pretty damn good. Garbage workers get paid $3-5 US an hour, get very few sick days and almost no vacation time!! (minimum wage is $3 US)

What a bunch of irresponsible self-absorbed assholes.
There are health issues to consider.

Again unions stoop to a lower level of making life more difficult for the people they work for (taxpayers)

No wonder most successful organizations have zero interest in a partnership with a union

 

[S.C. Joe]

Isn't the city of Toronto spending millions of dollars just to study what could be done to the Gardiner Expressway cause they feel its not "pretty"?

Which is more important

This is tourist season time, I be in town next week for Canada Day..now I'm hearing how the fireworks might not happen (not sure about the lakefront ones).

Those people who run the city (not the mayor who I could care less about) are important. More important than tearing down a good freeway cause some feel its an eyesore.

Sure just fire them all and bring the scabs in, a great way to ruin Canada higher paying jobs. That will drive your housing prices down (like what happen in the USA)