Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break
- Thread starter Thunderballs
- Start date
anyone can pick up garbage its disposing of it, that's the problem. Pick it up and dump it at city hall Bay & Queen NW cornor
garbage contract should go up for bid
The Union could bid on the contract just like any other private contractor. The City could sell the trucks to the successful bidder and the new company would pay the workers what they could afford. If the workers' demands got too high, the company would go broke and and the City would hire a new company that would ultimately do the job profitably and without disruption.
Under the current regime, the only motivation is to strike for more unjustified benefits and for the City to ultimately cave in because it doesn't come out of the City managers' packets. It comes out of the citizens' pockets as higher taxes and fees. It's a recipe for disaster.
The Union could bid on the contract just like any other private contractor. The City could sell the trucks to the successful bidder and the new company would pay the workers what they could afford. If the workers' demands got too high, the company would go broke and and the City would hire a new company that would ultimately do the job profitably and without disruption.
Under the current regime, the only motivation is to strike for more unjustified benefits and for the City to ultimately cave in because it doesn't come out of the City managers' packets. It comes out of the citizens' pockets as higher taxes and fees. It's a recipe for disaster.
Yes, you're arguing with a person who is generally pro union, not 'the union forever or bust'. On the issue of garbage collection private can work, and be (possibly) cheaper (if handled right). It's like I said before, IF they did go down that road, the city should lease the trucks and / or retain the capacity to to cover any one collection firm. And there are probably about a dozen other bits of policy and contract law that could come into play. That requires a continuity from the political class, regardless of how you do it. Even if solve the private sector 'hold up' problem in the short term, that's a shoddy guarantor of the future. As I've also said before the biggest conduit for waste tends to be where public meets private (contracts, consultants, and contractors.) There's a union 'hold up' problem there as well, which "Agree or swelter in the sun with the garbage." Oddly enough, the preferred method of solving a 'hold up' is via merger.someone said:
We can both wank on macro economics. (Christ, I even have a shiny piece of paper that says I can, though I'm not 'in field'.) It was not meant as misdirection. You're an advocate for the 'Chicago School', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_(economics) , and that's fine in so far as it goes. But they've fallen out of ascendancy for *good reasons*-- Not the least of which is that they've had 30 years and things haven't worked out as advertised. (I'm pathologically trying to avoid a series 25 paragraph debate on contemporary econ, less than I'm trying to misdirect. Mostly because I just don't have the time.)
I'm a social democrat (loony left), and I'm keen on Union 2.0-- That makes me a poor advocate of traditional unions in some ways. I've uttered more times than I can count that there is comprehensive reform needed to basically save traditional unions from themselves. Once again, unions shouldn't be able to shelter the incompetent and unproductive, shouldn't be able to fight technology, and should have regularly evaluated quotas that exist within 'one standard deviation' of the sustained output of a representative set of workers. In exchange the difference between part time and full time employees should be made cost neutral (politician hate that, but if you've ever had 2 or 3 part time gigs you damn well know why that's important.), there needs to be absolute clarity on 'essential services' (and maybe accelerated arbitration for garbage and TTC type services), 'what is a contractor?' should be sorted, and there are several right to organize and scab provisions that should be looked at. The biggest problem is that all policy happens on the fringes, so comprehensive reform is 'hard'. (And I hate to say it, I wouldn't really trust the party I tend to vote for to do it any more than the Conservatives, or whatever wing of the Liberal party is in power at the time.) I really don't want to wave the banner for traditional unions, though organized labour if structured right has a constructive role to play.
Basically unions should be about collective rights not defending individuals who don't particularly warrant it.
As far as 'Chicago School' driven policy goes, it's no coincidence that the current crises has hit the adherents of that school by proportion of how closely it followed it's dictates. The lesson that the Americans, Icelandic, and British should have learnt is that not all growth is equal. While 'globalism' shouldn't be 'rolled back' there is a justifiable counter movement on the go. Policy wise, 'supply side' and 'trickle down' have produced accelerating inequity, races to the bottom, and increasing political and economic volatility. There is no reason why the Scandinavian model wouldn't work quite well in Canada. We share density / temperate / resource availability similarities that we share with no other nations. We also share a border with the USA and overlapping demographics. Frankly, I have no illusions about which model produces better results for REAL LIVING HUMAN BEINGS while maintaining decent growth. Or basically 'society' and 'people' based policy, not rigid ideological policy on the left or right.
TL;DR version: Races to the bottom benefit nobody, not even those who profit from them if the short term. Neither does gross inefficiency for that matter. Rigid models that fixate on any one thing (Needs of Capital, or Organized Labour) that aren't holistic and people driven produce worse societies, and that leads to volatility which will often undermine the model.
THE REAL BONEHEAD IS THAT THE CITY KEEPS SIGNING CONTRACTS WITH AN EXPIRY DATE IN THE SUMMER. Sweet Jesus, they should hold out for dates that are spring or fall so the cold can keep the smell down, and the city isn't heaping with steaming garbage in the tourist season. Even if they cave on everything else, they should offset the date...
edit: and in so far this is a punt, well it is... My time is finite as well.
Actually, plenty of jurisdictions have handled this problem. Garbage collection is one of the easiest things to contract out as it does not require any significant specialized knowledge/skills or economies of scale.The Options Menu said:
I could but given that this is a microeconomic issue, I won’t bother. Doing so would be off topic. Macroeconomics would be a completely different subject for a completely different thread.The Options Menu said:
And yet, you never learnt the difference between microeconomics and macroeconomics? Strange.The Options Menu said:
Actually, you are wrong an all counts. This is a microeconomics issue and has little/nothing to do with macroeconomic schools of thought. Microeconomics does not really involve differing overall schools of thought. Even in modern macroeconomics, they are much less important than it used to be (and some debate whether a "Chicago school" ever really existed) but I don’t want to get completely off topic by talking about different approaches to macroeconomics like supply siders, New Keynesians, the Chicago school, fresh water versus salt water, etc. etc.The Options Menu said:
For the record, I will just add that as far as your claiming that I am “an advocate for the 'Chicago School'”, I have posted many times that I am a microeconomist and not a macroeconomist. One reason for this is that graduate school I always found the fact that after 100 or so years the data was still unable to lay the old issues to rest to be frustrating. I found microeconomics a much for fruitful area when it came to making research contributions to expand knowledge rather than debating the same basic issues forever (I am exaggerating a bit, but you would not be in a position to know by how much). I could see both sides of the debates in macroeconomics but that would be an issue for another thread. However, that has nothing to do with this issue and is for another thread. I only mention it to set the record straight.
Given that you are unaware of even the difference between microeconomics and macroeconomics, I think it is a good thing you don’t try to debate contemporary economics. To debate it would require at least an understanding of the basics. I won’t even bother responding to the rest of your post as (except for the normative aspects) it is irrelevant.The Options Menu said:
I have a friendly suggestion. Before you make posts about things you don’t understand like economics, perhaps you should try to learn some of the basics. You could always try taking a first-year course (the first class would likely at least explain the difference between micro and maco). Alternatively, just pick up a first year textbook and read it. Start with chapter 1 and work from there. I think that it is better than looking silly by posting nonsense but I doubt if you will take my advice. Learnign involves work.
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I wonder if they have garbage strikes in Islamic Iran? No, this stuff can only happen in Western democracies where public sector unions have monopoly power.
BTW These strikers make somewhere north of $80K (fully loaded) a year. Hardly your typical NDP supporter. They most likely vote Liberal or even Conservative.
in Islamic Iran? No, this stuff can only happen in Western democracies where public sector unions have monopoly power.BTW These strikers make somewhere north of $80K (fully loaded) a year. Hardly your typical NDP supporter. They most likely vote Liberal or even Conservative.
Your comparison is irrelevantbuckwheat1 said:
1. What skills are required to replace a garbage collector? Next to none
What skills are required to replace an effective (yes I know that is subjective) city councilor ? More than a garbage collector
2. You are comparing apples to oranges
Better yet to compare the wages & benefits of city garbage collectors to those in the private waste disposal sector.
As pointed out earlier in the thread city trash collectors are overpaid & then this sickday ripoff is whole other level of trying to suckle the public tit dry.
Another thing that bothers me is that I can recall the last garbage strike & it was not too long ago.
It is clear this union does not understand who it works for, which is the TAXPAYER
Its time to wake up
Yup. If they had real skills they wouldn't need a bully union and a communist mayor. Real men (and women) make their living on merit not on the back of bully unions.JohnLarue said:
hey Giorgio Mammoliti.........is that you??james t kirk said:
c'mon $100k is not low. besides when you add in all their benefits, extra $$ for sitting on committees they are at about $115k per annum. that doesn't even include their $53k slush fund. its simple, if they think they are underpaid, don't run again.
an mpp's base salary is $110k, $157 if they are in cabinet. based on that i'd say a city councillor's salary is very competitive. i don't get your logic here at all.
no garbage man makes $80k per year. supervisors may but not the actual collectors.
Oh, sorry-- macro on the counts that we (me and you primarily in response) were dealing with non-immediate strike related issues, and broader issues related to global capital flows and issues national and global economic organization. Much of our banter (or my banter, specifically) bounced around between both macro and micro issues. (Assuming we basically agree that micro is the study of relatively discreet actors in the economy. For lack of a superior definition of the top of my head.) But if you really want to have a pissing contest over which bits of what are micro or macro go to town.someone said:
Will re-read your post... This bit deserved clarification.
edit: You pretending that interplay between macro and mico economics is non-existent is cute. If you read what I wrote you know damn well that I bounced around stuff that could be pegged from either school. Apologies, but the "Chicago School' quite simply didn't didn't focus on one broad branch of economics. I could use the phrase 'neoliberal schools of politics and economics', but I suspect you wouldn't agree to that label either. I may well have over extended the umbrella of what the 'Chicago School' was, but to ascribe that as being 'wrong' makes it only wrong in the most pedantic sense possibly as the Chicago School has necessary implications upon the adoption of those ideas that reach into all domains of the political and economic.
You don't get to pretend that ideas, once implemented, don't have broader implications beyond the nominal and arbitrary boundaries of that sub-domain of theory craft. There are linkages there, that tend to lead to utterly predictable broader results.
So keep beating the drum on my macro vs micro when you know darn well that we've both touched on things that operate withing both 'domains'. So, if I misunderstood bad on me, if you misunderstood whatever, and if you're just being pedantic you can sod off.
edit 2: Back to the topic at hand. Any news on the actual strike?
Dont the people that pickup the garbage, get to go home after they have done their run? Thats what someone wrote to citynews.ca about a friend of his. Hasnt worked 8 hr shift since his first day. If they want to talk sick days etc., lets talk about how many people get to go home early everyday.
I can finish my days work within 4 hours. 1 whole work day (8hrs: i can do 2 days worth plus extra, have done it) But do I get to leave 3 hours early? no!
Screw them and their I dont get enough benefits as others do.
Cant they have their contracts run out in the winer, instead of the hot summer days? Restaurants and businesses must be suffering. I know I aint making plans to go downtown to eat, or anything else for that matter.
I can finish my days work within 4 hours. 1 whole work day (8hrs: i can do 2 days worth plus extra, have done it) But do I get to leave 3 hours early? no!
Screw them and their I dont get enough benefits as others do.
Cant they have their contracts run out in the winer, instead of the hot summer days? Restaurants and businesses must be suffering. I know I aint making plans to go downtown to eat, or anything else for that matter.
No, they get paid for their shift and then they fill in for a "sick" colleague and get double pay for the second shiftmilhouse said:
. What a bloody racket.
Winter would be bad because you find lots of little special gifts in the spring. That's why I'd go with spring / fall.milhouse said:
Ok, maybe a bit of an exageration on the 80k a year for a Gman.K Douglas said:
They're at about 25 an hour or so, which translates to mid 50's per year. But they do get paid by the route, so if they can finish in 6 hours, they still get paid for 8. They often have the option of working OT at 1.5 x base for all time after they complete their route.
As far as the Councillors go, no, I'm not Georgio, but I will admit that it's a responsible job and as such, I think that they should be making a salary in keeping with that level of responsibility. I don't consider 100k a year to be anything outstanding. Most High School Principals make more than that and I consider being a City of Toronto Councillor a more demanding job than being a HS principal, or a cop for that matter. I know that they can sit on this committee and that committee and boost their salaries, as well as the 53 in expenses, but that 53 is supposed to pay for their office I believe, and admin help, etc.
Not really. Earlier, you made a dumb post about buying berlin bonds and I pointed out that you were wrong. That was the only time we touched on macro issues.The Options Menu said:
Look, I am tired of giving you free lessons in economics. If you want to know what the difference between micro and macro economics, take my advice and pick up a first year textbook and read the first chapter. It was really dumb of you when you lied about having studied economics and did not even know that. And now instead of spending a few minutes with google trying to find out what the difference between macroeconomics and microeconomics is you just make up something based on the origins of the word micro and macro. It is not a bad guess based on the origin of the words but it is not what you would say if you knew what the terms meant.The Options Menu said:
I do not know why you continue making a fool of yourself. Look, it is wrong in the sense that you do not have a clue as to what the terms mean. You should simply not use terms you don’t understand.The Options Menu said:
Look guy, you are the one that falsely claimed to have studied economics. Don’t get upset because I pointed out that you lied. If you want to find out that macroeconomics is pick up a first year textbook. Hell, if you take a minute to use Google, I am sure that several hits will come up. I never would have made a big deal about your lack of understanding the terms if you had not falsely claimed to have studied economics. Instead, I would have been much more diplomatic. I might even have taken the time to explain the difference to you (although I don’t have a lot of time to for such free lessons)The Options Menu said:
You are just being foolish. You got caught lying and now you are defensive.The Options Menu said:
I will repeat the advice that I gave you before
The fact is that economics is not like more Mickey mouse social sciences like sociology or political science (I suspect you got the dumb idea that you could fake having studied economics because of some nonsense you learnt in a political science course (but I could be wrong on this and completely overestimating you). It involves some work to learn.someone said:
Another friendly suggestion, instead of getting defensive when someone catches you lying, just don’t lie to begin with. No one is an expert in everything. Perhaps you have a greater knowledge of gardening or something that I do. So be it. It does not get me upset. I don’t know why it gets you so upset. In addition, if you are caught lying and someone is polite enough not to use the world “lie” in their response (I thought I was pretty nice of me to just say “strange”) it is best to just not say anything, as getting defensive only makes things worse.
He might have something to say about that:healer677 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9x1f5I9k5w
Then again, if only we could figure out whatever the hell he is saying...just as usual.
Dude, you're the one being confrontational here. I'm years removed from my degree in econ. Your the one who basically called me a liar, and you dared me in this post to prove it. What do you want me to do? PM you copy of my degree. Don't think so. Sorry but-- Most of my university background is in econ. Most of my college stuff is 'Geek stuff related'. My employment is private sector non-union and geek stuff related. Beyond that, that's all you get.someone said:
I dropped the word 'macro' once with a threat of dusting off the text. Didn't put much thought into it at the time, and it was in reference to 'broader' national level issues. I've done as much apologizing about a potential misunderstanding as i care to. You are just being pedantic. Trying to foist me on add words or phases where the meaning should be clear enough.
OK- should have used 'neoliberal economic and political schools of though', instead of 'Chicago School' and the necessary implications that flow from that.
OK- the issue at hand was primarily in the domain of micro economics, but in most lounge threads on individual strikes I tend to rapidly move into the macro realm of broader issues of economic organization (well more precisely social and economic organization in general).
You pick and you beat a drum, then you dare me to prove it. Nice. Sod off.
I was actually half tempted to start google-fuing up stuff but this is pointless. We basically agree that garbage can indeed be pick up via the private sector. I'm mordantly less in favour your moderately more. I pointed out that I'm not the poster child for traditional unions despite the fact that I'm somewhat far left. As far as calling me a liar goes, you prove it.
(Edit: I can't actually believe that having an internet fight over what amounts to pedantry and not being sufficiently 'supply side' and 'trickle down' enough on a board dedicated to men getting off. Edit 2: If you check most of my posting on 'issues threads' I tend to advocate 'social-economic-political holism' of a fairly moderate left variety. Instead of word games please do continue to 'school me', I'm deeply curious, but don't screw around with pedantry. Edit 3: Economics is just another social science only useful in a holistic context with other social sciences. It's not arbitrary, that would make it useless, but economics as a science devoid of context goes a long way to explain what went wrong with the last 30 years in 'the West'.)
