Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[Cycleguy007]

Dump it all on Miller's office -right on city hall. Just don't get caught.

Too late- his office is already full of garbage!

Why not the CUPE office?

And so is CUPE's office...

 

[Garrett]

Hours: Four 10-hour days a week.

Is that a "theoretical" 10 hour day? I am under the impression so many houses would constitute a 10 hour day, and if they can do it in 6 hours, they can go home early.

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

There are two kinds of residential garbage collectors in the city: municipal employees walking the picket line in the blazing summer sun and the ones who are working today.

The latter are employed by Turtle Island Recycling, the company the City of Toronto pays more than $8.5 million a year to pick up waste in Etobicoke, where collection has been contracted out since before amalgamation.

Turtle Island management did not want to talk to the Star, but two waste collectors paused briefly to talk about their pay and benefits yesterday.

Their workdays are longer than those of city garbage collectors, their wages lower and their sick pay nonexistent. Never mind bankable sick days.

"I'd rather work for the city," said one, declining to give his name.

He fell off his roof while cleaning an eavestrough two weeks ago and sprained his wrist, which is now wrapped in a tensor bandage. But he did not take any time off.

"Don't come to work, don't get paid," he shrugged.

While his truck hummed noisily, the second driver pointed out another difference between him and a city worker.

"Two-and-half years, haven't had a raise," he said.

TURTLE ISLAND WASTE COLLECTORS

Pay: Varies depending on the kind of truck you drive and bonuses, workers say. One worker makes $23 an hour, while another said his base wage was $18 an hour, but that he typically makes around $21 with bi-weekly bonuses. Bonuses are based on how much weight he lugs and whether he gets to work on time.

Hours: Four-day week. One worker says he usually works 12-hour days.

Benefits: Include health care, dental and eye care.

Sick days: Unpaid. There are no bankable sick days.

Overtime: According to one worker, overtime pay does not begin until after 50 hours.

CITY OF TORONTO WASTE COLLECTORS

Pay: $25.11 an hour for drivers or loaders of solid waste, up 2.75 to 3.25 per cent annually since 2005.

Hours: Four 10-hour days a week.

Benefits: Extended health includes dental care, life insurance, eye care and physiotherapy.

Sick days: 18 sick days each year; unused days can be banked and cashed in on retirement, subject to certain limits.

Overtime: Time-and-a-half in excess of regularly scheduled workdays or weeks.

Source: CUPE, City of Toronto spokespeople, their last collective agreement. (published in today's Star)

And there you have it!!

18 sick days a year. 18 fucking sick days a year!! Jesus. I get zero sick days a year, and my BANK calls if I don't cover my mortgage (not that I have one LOL) with a paycheque every week. It's so ridiculous it's beyond.

 

[oldjones]

Is that a "theoretical" 10 hour day? I am under the impression so many houses would constitute a 10 hour day, and if they can do it in 6 hours, they can go home early.

And what would you call the managers who left the routes so unbalanced? Don't forget we're talking private contarctors here—supposedly so much mre comoetent ant cost-conscious than the city—, but then all you've offered is your impression.

Note also for the guys saying truck loading's so unskilled that $18 and more an hour is grossly overpaid: $18 is where the private contractor has to start their sacle to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up. And they do go higher.

 

[james t kirk]

And what would you call the managers who left the routes so unbalanced? Don't forget we're talking private contarctors here—supposedly so much mre comoetent ant cost-conscious than the city—, but then all you've offered is your impression.

Note also for the guys saying truck loading's so unskilled that $18 and more an hour is grossly overpaid: $18 is where the private contractor has to start their sacle to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up. And they do go higher.

There is a difference as well.

When you see those guys in Etobicoke collecting garbage - there's one guy on the truck, not 2 or 3.

One guy drives a truck that you stand up in, gets out, heaves the garbage, then moves to the next house. Not an easy job and you are basically paid for endurance and suffering.

The guy on the news they interviewed last night said he makes 18 an hour, which is about 40k a year at regular hours. The city Gmen make 25 and change an hour which is about 54k a year, plus this and that.

Who would you rather work for?

 

[dirkd101]

Ok, so there's a strike, I understand that people get used to putting their garbage at the curb and it's picked up the next day. Why is it that all the scum-bags emerge when things like this happen? What I am talking about is the garbage that is dumped at the designated pickup sites that would not normally go out in regular garbage, the stuff that these people would have to pay for to dump. I guess they don't have to find an illegal dump site now. These people are pathetic!

 

[someone]

Dude, you're the one being confrontational here. I'm years removed from my degree in econ. Your the one who basically called me a liar, and you dared me in this post to prove it. What do you want me to do? PM you copy of my degree. Don't think so. Sorry but-- Most of my university background is in econ. Most of my college stuff is 'Geek stuff related'. My employment is private sector non-union and geek stuff related. Beyond that, that's all you get.

Look, I am not looking for anything as I already believe you are being dishonest about the university part of your background. It is true that some years marks have to be adjusted more than others and thus some people pass a given course that should not. However, I cannot believe that someone who knows as little as you has a degree in economics. It is just not possible (at least in Canada, if you said New Zealand, I might just believe you but that is another story). The way to prove that you are not being dishonest would be to show some knowledge which you have not done. I purposely used the word “strange” to be polite initially but you pushed the issue and I got more honest. I don’t know what you want now? Do you expect me to lie and say I believe you?

I dropped the word 'macro' once with a threat of dusting off the text. Didn't put much thought into it at the time, and it was in reference to 'broader' national level issues. I've done as much apologizing about a potential misunderstanding as i care to. You are just being pedantic. Trying to foist me on add words or phases where the meaning should be clear enough.

I don’t really care about your not understanding the terms themselves. I picked up on it because it is something you would know if you had really studied economics. That is the only reason I brought it up.

You pick and you beat a drum, then you dare me to prove it. Nice. Sod off.

Instead of getting defensive when you are caught lying, it would be better to just not lie to begin with.

I was actually half tempted to start google-fuing up stuff but this is pointless. We basically agree that garbage can indeed be pick up via the private sector. I'm mordantly less in favour your moderately more. I pointed out that I'm not the poster child for traditional unions despite the fact that I'm somewhat far left.

Whatever you say

As far as calling me a liar goes, you prove it.

I think I have proven it (at least to my satisfaction). If you did have the background you claimed you would know something about the basics and I have shown that you don’t.

(Edit: I can't actually believe that having an internet fight over what amounts to pedantry and not being sufficiently 'supply side' and 'trickle down' enough on a board dedicated to men getting off.

Again, you are using terms you do not understand.

Edit 2: If you check most of my posting on 'issues threads' I tend to advocate 'social-economic-political holism' of a fairly moderate left variety. Instead of word games please do continue to 'school me', I'm deeply curious, but don't screw around with pedantry. Edit 3: Economics is just another social science only useful in a holistic context with other social sciences. It's not arbitrary, that would make it useless, but economics as a science devoid of context goes a long way to explain what went wrong with the last 30 years in 'the West'.)

Look, until you learn something about economics, your opinion of it is not worth much as far as I am concern. It would be like my stating an opinion about criticisms that theoretical physics has gotten too far ahead of the ability to test the theories. Perhaps the criticisms are valid but my opinion of them would be worthless and I would never pretend otherwise.

Look guy, you started off with what is a theoretical possibility. I pointed out that the possibility went both ways and you had no evidence that it applied to garbage collection in way that in not make private contracting cheaper. If you had either provided evidence or just agreed to disagreed or just ignored the issue, it would have been fine. Alternatively, given that I was not willing to do the work of finding empirical evidence, you could have just passed the buck back to me which would have ended it. Instead you went on tangents and implied a background you don’t have. This has gotten way off the topic of the thread. That is also my fault as I did not have to respond to your replies to my posts. However, sometimes I can get caught up in these things even though I know better. By now, I am sure that everyone in the thread has learnt to ignore our exchange for it is adding no value to the thread.

 

[squash500]

Why are people who are waiting in line for hours on end to dump their garbage at the city designated transfer stations not being allowed in because of those f****** cupe picketers?

I don't blame the public for just dumping their garbage anywhere they want. I personally find it rich that Miller then sets up a snitch line for citizens to report people who illegally dump their garbage after waiting hours in lines at the city designated transfer stations

It's going to be a sunny 30 degrees celcius today. It's going to get stinky out there!

 

[Dandy_Dapper_Boy]

the voice of the people Vox populi, has voted an over overwhelmingly consensus to get rid of Miller and Macghinty, or how ever you spell that jerks name.

Take all your trash and dump it in Millers office, there is always room for more.

 

[someone]

Note also for the guys saying truck loading's so unskilled that $18 and more an hour is grossly overpaid: $18 is where the private contractor has to start their sacle to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up.

Actually that is not necessarily the case, the city regulates what contractors can pay. See http://www.toronto.ca/fairwage/index.htm.

 

[buckwheat1]

McGuinty is still way ahead in the polls. Miller will win next election.

It's MILLER TIME!!!!!

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

Why are people who are waiting in line for hours on end to dump their garbage at the city designated transfer stations not being allowed in because of those f****** cupe picketers?

I don't blame the public for just dumping their garbage anywhere they want. I personally find it rich that Miller then sets up a snitch line for citizens to report people who illegally dump their garbage after waiting hours in lines at the city designated transfer stations

It's going to be a sunny 30 degrees celcius today. It's going to get stinky out there!

I couldn't agree more. I think we all SHOULD dump our garbage to show our displeasure. Miller seems to have it backwards. If the union thugs put pressure on us, why can't the public fight back by dumping--preferably in the union thugs front yards.

Preventing people from dumping at the depots after they've been inconvenienced enough means zero fucking sympathy from me.

 

[buckwheat1]

NO there are laws against dumping garbage and fines too. Dump it at city hall they have a large paved yard

 

[oldjones]

Actually that is not necessarily the case, the city regulates what contractors can pay. See http://www.toronto.ca/fairwage/index.htm.

Yeah, and without reulation the private contractor could likely get crews from the slave-market at Sherbourne and Queen for less than minimum wage. Is that the kind of society you want? Gotta have some rules that benefit everyone, especially those with little or none of their own power.

More to the point, what kind of trash collection do you think you'd 'enjoy' with that sort of lowest cost service?

 

[oldjones]

I couldn't agree more. I think we all SHOULD dump our garbage to show our displeasure. Miller seems to have it backwards. If the union thugs put pressure on us, why can't the public fight back by dumping--preferably in the union thugs front yards.

Preventing people from dumping at the depots after they've been inconvenienced enough means zero fucking sympathy from me.

It's been barely three days; who's so slobby they can't hold their trash for that long?

And who's so stupid as to think it'll be better for their tax bill—and mine—to dump their trash wherever, for extra cost cleanup when the strike's over, instead of just hanging onto it?

Just means more OT for the collectors when they go back. That'll more than make up for their lost wages, because the more illegal dumping, the faster the city'll cave, or the province will legislate.

The essence of beating strikers is to demonstrate, "Who needs you?" Illegal dumping makes their case for them.

 

[buckwheat1]

it's like a cleaner say pay him 9.00 a hour and thats what you'll get a 9.00 job. pay him 15.00 an hour and you'll get 15.00 worth of work along with some pride. Now if he gets sick which he cannot help he'd get paid in the public sector in the private sector he'd rot and they'd hire someone else for 7.50 an hour.

 

[someone]

Yeah, and without reulation the private contractor could likely get crews from the slave-market at Sherbourne and Queen for less than minimum wage. Is that the kind of society you want? Gotta have some rules that benefit everyone, especially those with little or none of their own power.

More to the point, what kind of trash collection do you think you'd 'enjoy' with that sort of lowest cost service?

First, my point was that your claim that “$18 is where the private contractor has to start their sacle to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up.” Many people do not know about these regulations so when I pointed out your misunderstanding I was not being critical. Now, you seem to have abandonned your original claim and are now claiming that some central planner in the form of a government office is better able to decide wages than the market. Personally, I think it is naïve to suggest that the real reason is not simply to keep unions happy by reducing the incentive of the city to contract out work to lower cost providers. Alternatively, I could respond by bringing up the tonnes of historical evidence that such central planning does not work. Instead I will just stick with the point of my original post that you where incorrect to claim the wage rate paid my city contractors is the wage rate that “the private contractor has to start their sacle to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up.” You have no evidence to back up that claim.

 

[oldjones]

So far the only argument here against sick pay has been, "I don't get it in my job" and its variants.

And of course the guys who are paid by the year don't usuall book payless days for their colds.

The harsh logic of 'no work no pay' is very clear and hard to argue, and I've worked tha way most of my life.

But if some guys get that sweeter deal, why aren't we cheering for them instead of dragging them back? And if it's not good for anyone, why no demands to force everyone who doesn't clock in to forgo a day's pay?

So far the arguments put forth here deman those who've advanced them.

 

[realthing69]

Yeah, and without reulation the private contractor could likely get crews from the slave-market at Sherbourne and Queen for less than minimum wage. Is that the kind of society you want? Gotta have some rules that benefit everyone, especially those with little or none of their own power.

More to the point, what kind of trash collection do you think you'd 'enjoy' with that sort of lowest cost service?

On your last point, so if someone is being paid minimum wage (or something low) that's justification to provide crap service?
If an employee is not doing a good job (or not doing their job) then that employee should be dealt with by being let go (after a warning).

Sure they have power, by finding another job...there are plenty of hard working people (in this case) that can get a better job. At this moment I get the impression that CUPE members were forced into these jobs by society and they can't do anything about it.

 

[oldjones]

First, my point was that your claim that “$18 is where the private contractor has to start their scale to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up.” Many people do not know about these regulations so when I pointed out your misunderstanding I was not being critical. Now, you seem to have abandonned your original claim and are now claiming that some central planner in the form of a government office is better able to decide wages than the market. Personally, I think it is naïve to suggest that the real reason is not simply to keep unions happy by reducing the incentive of the city to contract out work to lower cost providers. Alternatively, I could respond by bringing up the tonnes of historical evidence that such central planning does not work. Instead I will just stick with the point of my original post that you where incorrect to claim the wage rate paid my city contractors is the wage rate that “the private contractor has to start their scale to attract workers who will do the job and keep showing up.”

Thanks for your generous intention; I am very much aware of the city's fair wage policy, and it's been discussed here before. Within the existing framework of rules, I believe my original statement still stands. Far from advocating central planning, I was trying to point out some sort of rules will always be in place. Truly free markets only exist in theories. No one's free to sell themselves into slavery, use their own kilogramme standard, or contravene health and safety laws. Just for starters. That's the real marketplace, here and now that the city and their contractors work in.

Where I see a role for central planning is there: in public interest, honest behaviour, fair dealing, the kind of regulation that free market places have begged governments for since Hammurabi, not the sort of economic central planning you seem to fear. Sorry I wasn't clear.

There's certainly a case to be made for private contracting of services like trash collection. But the guys harping on "$18 for unskilled labour WTF!" aren't making it. Not when that's what the private contractor's already are paying. Once we remove the 'fair wage' provision, then any proposal has to deal with what rules, if any, govern the contract. We could use shock collars and Don Jail inmates, for nothing maybe?

*I apologize for editing your post to make my own spelling look a little better. Did you really have to quote me twice?