Holocaust deniers.
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zydeco said:sugardaddy - you might want to take your own advice to someone earlier in this thread....."calm down and learn how to debate".
Okay will do.........my next post will be in response to the original post from Lenny boy
Okay, let me answer all your questions. I do no hard labour in Florida whatsoever. I will have to ask my diet specialist in regards to my caloric intake. I'm taking a guess......but there is approx. 100 in this building. I have two high end sports cars that require Premium Unleaded, but it only has a octane rating of 93, and my cars require 95, so I also add some STP fuel additiave for each tank full. Sadly, it appears that most of the killings are blacks. I am not married nor do I have a daughter, so no raping going on here. I'd like to have a daughter though, have a son, but a daughter is always special. If your wife is attractive, can I have a go at her?? Please.lenharper said:So ... just because the Nazi's bought one way tickets for the Jews it doesn't mean the Nazi's didn't think the Jews wouldn't be returning because when you buy one way tickets to Florida for a vacation it doesn't mean you're not returning.
At least I think that is your point.
So how much hard labour are you doing in Florida? what is the caloric content of your daily rations in florida? how many of your are sleeping in the same disease ridden building in florida? what kind of gas are they using in florida? Who are they killing in front of your own eyes in florida? Are they raping the wife in front of you or your daughter in florida?
Remember, I did say please.
Asterix said:With all due respect, if you have no knowledge of what you're posting, it is best not to. Raphael Lemkin was not some scared man who was reacting to what he had personally gone through. He got out in time. He was a professor of law, four times nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, and the leader of organizing the 1948 international convention on genocide. To say he was using a word he invented out of context, is ludicrous. For some reason I can't create a workable link, but you can google Raphael Lemkin+Christian Science Monitor, or go to wikipedia for a bio.
No, it is defined as this.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm
If you were planning to efficiently mass produce something, would you do it piece-meal in the field, or would you build factories? The Nazis mass produced the killing of millions, pure and simple.
The Americans, British and French were also mass producing killing machines.
But as DQ noted, they were the victors, thus the victors can't bring themselves to trial for war crimes, can they.
Funny, but Harry Truman, and the Americans were solely responsible for the two days with the greatest amount of civilian deaths in the entire war.
Since were Israel is hell bent on trying prison guards of the Concentration camps, should the Japanese seek to bring to trial the Pilot of the Enola Gay??
Or any of the pilots involved in the Fire storm of Dresdan??
Don, correct me if i'm wrong, but were the Concentration camps not run by the SS?? Also, the Geneva Convention for civilian prisoners in time of war was not adopted until 1949. Prior to that the Hague Convention of 1907 was the sole treaty.DonQuixote said:My answer is short and simple.
A soldier must refuse an order that violates the Geneva Conventions
and the Army's Code of Conduct. He may face harsh consequences.
But, those consequences will be short in duration. To follow such
an order will torment him to the day he dies.
Don
Thank you.handsome sugardaddy said:Okay, let me answer all your questions. I do no hard labour in Florida whatsoever. I will have to ask my diet specialist in regards to my caloric intake. I'm taking a guess......but there is approx. 100 in this building. I have two high end sports cars that require Premium Unleaded, but it only has a octane rating of 93, and my cars require 95, so I also add some STP fuel additiave for each tank full. Sadly, it appears that most of the killings are blacks. I am not married nor do I have a daughter, so no raping going on here. I'd like to have a daughter though, have a son, but a daughter is always special. If your wife is attractive, can I have a go at her?? Please.
Remember, I did say please.
Now maybe you see the ludicrousness of your original point where you tried to link the fact that you buy one way tickets and the nazi's bought one way tickets is not proof that the nazi's did not expect the passengers to come back.
The linkage is ludicrous because circumstances around the purchase of these one way tickets is completely different. You go down to florida to enjoy the fruits of your labour -- nice car, dietician etc... etc... while the Jews were sent to almost certain death.
the only constant in these two equations is that both you and the nazi's bought one way tickets.
I don't dispute this at all, and it is important to recognize that in any war, crimes are comitted by both sides. It is impossible to seperate this from any definition of war. I've long thought the second bomb dropped on Nagasaki may not have been necessary, and was done as much for expediency and politics as anything else. That said, I don't understand the denial, almost to vehemence, that some people have in dealing with the Holocaust. It was planned and controlled murder. Period. That there are sadly many examples in history of people trying to eradicate others is obvious.handsome sugardaddy said:The Americans, British and French were also mass producing killing machines.
But as DQ noted, they were the victors, thus the victors can't bring themselves to trial for war crimes, can they.
Funny, but Harry Truman, and the Americans were solely responsible for the two days with the greatest amount of civilian deaths in the entire war.
Since were Israel is hell bent on trying prison guards of the Concentration camps, should the Japanese seek to bring to trial the Pilot of the Enola Gay??
Or any of the pilots involved in the Fire storm of Dresdan??
lenharper said:Thank you.
Now maybe you see the ludicrousness of your original point where you tried to link the fact that you buy one way tickets and the nazi's bought one way tickets is not proof that the nazi's did not expect the passengers to come back.
The linkage is ludicrous because circumstances around the purchase of these one way tickets is completely different. You go down to florida to enjoy the fruits of your labour -- nice car, dietician etc... etc... while the Jews were sent to almost certain death.
the only constant in these two equations is that both you and the nazi's bought one way tickets.
I dont believe that to be the case. The option of death was not an immediate decision. That was part of the Final Soloution. Originally, they were Labour Camps. They bought one way tickets, becasue they would not allow them back to Germany, that is for sure. But intially, there was no indication from any of the Nazi Hierachy that they would be killed. If that was the case, then why would they have kept them around for a few years, before killing them. A bullet to the head is a lot cheaper than housing, food and medicine. Although, granted, their conditions should not be confused with staying at the Ritz or in South Florida.
Sigh. A very relatively small number came from Germany. Perhaps 200,000. The overwhelming numbers were from Poland, Central Europe and Russia. Hitler had designated this area as the future German "living space". Job #1 was to clear it out of the current residents.handsome sugardaddy said:I dont believe that to be the case. The option of death was not an immediate decision. That was part of the Final Soloution. Originally, they were Labour Camps. They bought one way tickets, becasue they would not allow them back to Germany, that is for sure.
I am not sure what you mean about Hitler and a heart attack?Untimely would be 3 months and Hitler had a heart attack. They had 6 hard yrs to kill everyone if that was the intention. Nazis went to to great efforts to keep Jews alive - even if for labor. If Auschwitz ran from 1940-45 that 5 yrs of keeping people alive. If genocide was the goal, the camp would have been empty long before the allies came.
I have not researched this but I suggest that the initial German successes in the War with additional massive populations of Jews and others marked for destruction in effect outran the capacity of the camps combined with probably other concerns and strain on resources during the final 2 years as the Nazis themselves went into survival mode.
Yes, and for political purposes, he built all these camps outside of Germany Proper.Asterix said:Sigh. A very relatively small number came from Germany. Perhaps 200,000. The overwhelming numbers were from Poland, Central Europe and Russia. Hitler had designated this area as the future German "living space". Job #1 was to clear it out of the current residents.
Remember, Hitler above all else, was a politician. He was the Master of Propaganda. The spin doctors of today are students of the Nazi propaganda machine.
The war was also not popular in Germany after 1942. Hitler needed to stir up the emotions of the Germans. So once again he went on the political attack, citing the Jews as the problem. He even went as far as to claim, that the Allies were being manipulated by the Jews abroad and thus that is why the Final Soloution needed to be implemented.pussygalore said:I am not sure what you mean about Hitler and a heart attack?
I have not researched this but I suggest that the initial German successes in the War with additional massive populations of Jews and others marked for destruction in effect outran the capacity of the camps combined with probably other concerns and strain on resources during the final 2 years as the Nazis themselves went into survival mode.
The German people, were starving during the 2nd half of the war. The resources had drained, no coal and oil being imported. The people had become totally disillusioned with Hitler.
Not just for political purposes, although that was part of it. It wouldn't do to have killing factories in the fatherland, because it would obviously offend peoples sensibilities. Poland was the logiical choice because it was close, without being too close, and had the highest population of Jews of any country in Europe, Russia being a close second.handsome sugardaddy said:Yes, and for political purposes, he built all these camps outside of Germany Proper.
Remember, Hitler above all else, was a politician. He was the Master of Propaganda. The spin doctors of today are students of the Nazi propaganda machine.
Yes you are correct. Also, I strongly believe that the majority of Germans were not aware of the camps. How could they?? No internet..........no uncontrolled media, even talking about such a thing would have the Gestapo at your door and hauling your ass off.Asterix said:Not just for political purposes, although that was part of it. It wouldn't do to have killing factories in the fatherland, because it would obviously offend peoples sensibilities. Poland was the logiical choice becasue it was close, without being to close, and had the highest population of Jews of any country in Europe, Russia being a close second.
Kathleen,
Following is from a site about Treblinka. As the Russians began to advance camps were destroyed so the "extermination" camps did not operate for 6 years:
"When asked during his later trial how many people could be murdered in one day, Franz Stangl, Commandant of Treblinka, answered:
"Regarding the question of the optimum amount of people gassed in one day, I can state: according to my estimation a transport of thirty freight cars with 3,000 people was liquidated in three hours. When the work lasted for about fourteen hours, 12,000 to 15,000 people were annihilated. There were many days that the work lasted from the early morning until the evening . . . I have done nothing to anybody that was not my duty. My conscience is clear.' "
Treblinka was in reality just a place of mass execution - a deathcamp like Auschwitz. After New Year, 1943, the number of transports began to diminish. In February or March, 1943, Himmler visited Treblinka, and after this the eradication of all traces of the crime by wholesale burning of corpses began.
It has been estimated that about 850,000 people were killed here. Jews from occupied Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Yugoslavia and the USSR, as well as from Germany and Austria. Polish and German Gypsies were also sent to Treblinka.
The Treblinka death camp was finally closed in November, 1943."
Following is from a site about Treblinka. As the Russians began to advance camps were destroyed so the "extermination" camps did not operate for 6 years:
"When asked during his later trial how many people could be murdered in one day, Franz Stangl, Commandant of Treblinka, answered:
"Regarding the question of the optimum amount of people gassed in one day, I can state: according to my estimation a transport of thirty freight cars with 3,000 people was liquidated in three hours. When the work lasted for about fourteen hours, 12,000 to 15,000 people were annihilated. There were many days that the work lasted from the early morning until the evening . . . I have done nothing to anybody that was not my duty. My conscience is clear.' "
Treblinka was in reality just a place of mass execution - a deathcamp like Auschwitz. After New Year, 1943, the number of transports began to diminish. In February or March, 1943, Himmler visited Treblinka, and after this the eradication of all traces of the crime by wholesale burning of corpses began.
It has been estimated that about 850,000 people were killed here. Jews from occupied Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Yugoslavia and the USSR, as well as from Germany and Austria. Polish and German Gypsies were also sent to Treblinka.
The Treblinka death camp was finally closed in November, 1943."
I agree that most Germans were not aware of what was going on in the camps. It is a very human reaction to not want to accept such horrible actions comitted against others, especially if it is by some of your own. Many of the Germans who were required to visit the camps immediately after the war, continued to deny what they were seeing, as if the whole thing had been staged to upset them. Still, I have to wonder what they thought when they saw people stripped of their businesses and homes, and shipped off to destinations unknown. The lesson of the Holocaust is that people are complicit to crimes by the few with their silence.handsome sugardaddy said:Yes you are correct. Also, I strongly believe that the majority of Germans were not aware of the camps. How could they?? No internet..........no uncontrolled media, even talking about such a thing would have the Gestapo at your door and hauling your ass off.
pussygalore said:Kathleen,
Following is from a site about Treblinka. As the Russians began to advance camps were destroyed so the "extermination" camps did not operate for 6 years:
"When asked during his later trial how many people could be murdered in one day, Franz Stangl, Commandant of Treblinka, answered:
"Regarding the question of the optimum amount of people gassed in one day, I can state: according to my estimation a transport of thirty freight cars with 3,000 people was liquidated in three hours. When the work lasted for about fourteen hours, 12,000 to 15,000 people were annihilated. There were many days that the work lasted from the early morning until the evening . . . I have done nothing to anybody that was not my duty. My conscience is clear.' "
Treblinka was in reality just a place of mass execution - a deathcamp like Auschwitz. After New Year, 1943, the number of transports began to diminish. In February or March, 1943, Himmler visited Treblinka, and after this the eradication of all traces of the crime by wholesale burning of corpses began.
It has been estimated that about 850,000 people were killed here. Jews from occupied Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Yugoslavia and the USSR, as well as from Germany and Austria. Polish and German Gypsies were also sent to Treblinka.
The Treblinka death camp was finally closed in November, 1943."
Franz was exaggerating, If you go to the site that listed earlier in this thread, there are a number of essasy regarding this. The highest number that was possible, and this is according to the engineers who built these ovens, was 5-6000. And this was only attainable after 1942, when the final ovens were built there.
Anyways, folks, good debate going here..........I have to go catch the Florida Marlins, I will check in later.
Kepp cool, its a sensitive subject.
They didn't keep people alive for five years. They didn't last that long. The major killing process was done over four or five years. You seem to have moved on from disputing numbers to disputing exactly how people died. The fact is that millions were shipped to camps from which they did not return, and by the time the Allies arrived, the overwhelming number of them were gone. The intent to eradicate the Jews was obvious and explcit.Kathleen said:If he fled in 1939, I'd say he wouldnt even know Genocide, or have been witness to one. But that is going on my definition of the term. The terms I looked up tell a much more differant description, and I'm not sure why.
Seeing as how he created the term, and this term from your link came up - Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Having read that, I am blown away, and do apologize. Even had he fled in 1939, if this is his creation of Genocide, then he was certainly witness to one. I will also not speak of someone unless I know their character better.
Were Genocide adopted a new, or differant meaning, I'd like to know. Genocide (as per the dictionary I used) claims something pure evil - the attempt at removing an entire race.
But the term you provide, the original, claims a greatly tuned down version. Like to say ' someone who causes another race harm'.
It's like seeing Holocaust change definitions in the 80s.. why? Who is changing these terms and why more then one meaning?
Still think it was too much effort. Why keep people alive for 5 yrs, or waste men and time on slow killing methods?
Would it not be so much easier to starve all prisioners for two days, when they are so weak, lock it up and leave? Problem solved in just one single week. Now, all those much needed Germans can be used at the front. All those wasted resourses can be better used.
Why waste the huge efforts on feeding, clothes,tattoos, and men?
It just doesn't make sense. You don't cloth, feed and especially tattoo a person you expect to kill shortly.
