Holocaust deniers.
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Asterix said:
The Nazi's were not as meticulous as you may think. If you were to go strictly by the 'Death Records" kept by the Nazi's at the Camps, I don't think there was even one million deaths recorded.
this is my first summer down here........Man is it HOT. Think of the hottest heat waves that Toronto experiences, and then imagine that every single day since the beginning of May.......not one single day below 32 degrees celsius.Asterix said:
But the women here are soooooooooooooooooooo hot too.
Possibly not, but they did keep many records that contribute to a body of evidence. People disappeared, millioms of them, that can't be accounted for. The Nazis were essentially their stewards, in the absolute sense of the word. I consider their whole hierachy based on gangsterism, as opposed to true fascism. Whatever was said was on a need to know only basis. The only difference is that the gangsters in America were better at hiding who they murdered.handsome sugardaddy said:
Well, they better be. There's gotta be some reason for moving there. My sister got hit with a couple of storms last year that she tried to shrug off. Where I live we last saw something like that in the 60's.handsome sugardaddy said:this is my first summer down here........Man is it HOT. Think of the hottest heat waves that Toronto experiences, and then imagine that every single day since the beginning of May.......not one single day below 32 degrees celsius.
But the women here are soooooooooooooooooooo hot too.
Uhhh, yeah. It's called running a deficit to pull your nation out of recession/depression. And bankruptcy wasn't going to be an issue when you had plans for all of Europe to be under your heel.Asterix said:
The second part is highly debatable. The "official" plan was for no war until 1946. At least, that's what Hitler told the navy. But as history has shown us, Hitler had no intention of peace for that long. Of course he placated the military by telling them otherwise, but you can only postpone "destiny" for so long...
When I say good, I don't mean Christian snow-white moralistic good. I mean good as in good for the German people. Hitler was not branded an evil maniac when that Time issue came out (despite what Time might have you believe today). He was "Man of the Year" in January, 1939; that wasn't for sending folks to concentration camps. Hitler's regime was responsible for rebuilding the German economy and national pride throughout the 1930s. Their accomplishments were recognized and admired around the world. Of course, when war broke out, all that changed.
Saying that Hitler was bankrupting the German economy is like saying FDR's New Deal was bankrupting the US economy. The whole point was gov't spending to incite improved economic activity, with the profits gained going to pay down the deficit/debt that was incurred in getting there (at least, that was the plan). Nazi Germany's economic development throughout the 1930s was not one of capitalism in the traditional sense of the word; it was single-minded in its purpose of transforming the nation to a national "war economy" for purposes that we all now know. In that, it was highly successful.
Yeah, but when you have 6 million people "liquidated", it's pretty clear what it is you're talking about. Or when you say Poland is 100% "Jew free", you've gotta be pretty dense to not understand what that means.handsome sugardaddy said:
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Nazis didn't explicitly come out and say "we've murdered this many people today." But, from what I've heard, that's exactly what they did; at least in reports to Himmler. The death camps have meticulous records of how many people were dying per day. Grimly, it was part of German efficiency to get those numbers up (thus, one of the reasons for building gas chambers as hanging or shooting people was too slow and drew too much attention).
I don't really understand your point here. You seem to be agreeing with me and disagreeing at the same time. Hitler was overspending at an ever increasing rate. Half of the budget was going to the military. They had no real international trade, largely by choice, and nearly all of their debt was internal. Had they not gone to war, they would almost certainly have had spiralling inflation and a wrecked economy. I don't see how anyone could consider an economy, predicated on having to invade Europe in order to save it's butt, as a success. Hitler would have ruined Germany had he begun WWII or not.Keebler Elf said:
Time magazine's criteria for Man of the Year, now Person of the Year, is as follows. To recognize a man or woman "who for better or worse has influenced events in the preceding year". As I said, Stalin made the list twice, the second time in 1942 after it was known what an evil little bastard he was, Khruschev made it, The Ayatollah Khomeni made it, and if he had been alive at the time, Attila the Hun would have made it. Again, I don't know why you seem to be praising Hitler for this.Keebler Elf said:
1) Not sure what your question is.Kathleen said:
3) I assume this is what you are talking about. http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/wwi-holocaust-01.html
One political "speech" is the only reference I could find, with no supporting evidence. The sites I found were either like the one above (those who attack holocaust deniers) , or from sites like http://www.nsm88.com/articles/holohoax/backto1902.html which have slightly obvious motives.
2) The vast majority of the sites I found on the topic of this prophecy were messianic sites talking about the end of days/second coming. As zionism was predominantly a socialist, not religous belief, I see little reson why a cabalistic prophecy would have any relevance, except to those (such as those who propogate the story of your 3rd question) who want to portray the Holocaust in the light of a Jewish conspiracy.
4) The definition hasn't changed. Big H Holocaust is about the specific incident(s) we're talking about. Small h holocaust still has the "old" meeting.
5,6) Specific opinions of individuals, not any official policy.
Don,
One of the few times I disagree with you completely. Many here have tried to answer Kathleen, and I've pointed out when the facts she was using were incomplete or flat out wrong. The fact remains that the Nazis collected and stored millions of human beings in camps who never made it out alive. There is a mountain of evidence to support this. I find myself feeling, when I discuss this with people who deny, that it is like arguing with a defense lawyer for OJ. Did I see him do it? No. Did I ever see the place where the crime took place? No. Do I believe there is any one piece of evidence that proves his guilt? No. Do I believe he is guilty of a double murder? Absolutely.
I'd also like to say that I think Kathleen's interest in this is genuine, and I don't believe motivated by hate. The problem is that many of the sources she is using are.
One of the few times I disagree with you completely. Many here have tried to answer Kathleen, and I've pointed out when the facts she was using were incomplete or flat out wrong. The fact remains that the Nazis collected and stored millions of human beings in camps who never made it out alive. There is a mountain of evidence to support this. I find myself feeling, when I discuss this with people who deny, that it is like arguing with a defense lawyer for OJ. Did I see him do it? No. Did I ever see the place where the crime took place? No. Do I believe there is any one piece of evidence that proves his guilt? No. Do I believe he is guilty of a double murder? Absolutely.
I'd also like to say that I think Kathleen's interest in this is genuine, and I don't believe motivated by hate. The problem is that many of the sources she is using are.
Well, I'd have to both agree and disagree with you DonnyQ. I agree with you that most of the time, and certainly in relation to this particular topic - emotions will trump reason. Tough to convert someone on one side of this argument to the other. But I don't think that anyone who takes the positons that Kathleen has - is necessarily an Anti-semite or should be perceived as one. Unlike yourself, I found her arguments to be weak, illogical, uninformed and for the most part bordering on the ridiculous - however, I don't really walk away from this thinking that she's an Anti-semite. On the other hand, there are some other posters in this thread whom I'm certain deserve that label - so I think reasonable people should be able to look at the totality of an individual's argument and decide if they are merely misguided - or motivated by hate.
Really??? I don't think there is anyone that has posted on this thread that I would label anti-semite.zydeco said:
Which posts would lead you to believe that?
sugardaddy - That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it - but I really don't think referring to specific posts here will in any way add value to this discussion. That would only be an excerise in futility and one that would no doubt only serve to inflame matters.
DonQuixote said:
Interesting equation there Don........do you have some links to back up those number? If those numbers are correct, you make a interesting point. One that I never even thought to consider.
Interesting.
As my original post stated, there is no historical evidence of another holocaust of 6 million jews, only some text attributed to an american politician. Even the text does not say 6 million killed. What it says is "Within them reside the illimitable possibilities for the advancement of the human race as naturally would reside in SIX MILLION human beings." stating an approxiimate number of jews living in eastern europe, and "IN THE FACE OF DEATH, IN THE THROES OF STARVATION there is no place for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical differences of race. In this catastrophy, when SIX MILLION HUMAN BEINGS are being WHIRLED TOWARD THE GRAVE by a CRUEL AND RELENTLESS FATE, only the most idealistic promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the hand.
SIX MILLION MEN AND WOMEN ARE DYING from lack of the necessaries of life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And THIS FATE is upon them through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, through no transgression of the laws of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a BIGOTED LUST FOR JEWISH BLOOD.
In this THREATENED HOLOCAUST OF HUMAN LIFE, forgotten are the niceties of philosophical distinction, forgotten are the differences of historical interpretation; and the determination to help the helpless, to shelter the homeless, to clothe the naked and to feed the hungry becomes a religion at whose altar men of every race can worship and women of every creed can kneel... "
Nowhere does it say 6 million were killed, just that the 6 million Jews living in the area were under threat.The closest I could find beyond this speech is a reference to about 1600 Jews killed in the Ukraine in 1919.
For a view of what the "experts" say, try http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/ which comments on many of the theories used by the "revisionists" and http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html which contains responses to many of the IHR's views on the accuracy of the holocaust.
SIX MILLION MEN AND WOMEN ARE DYING from lack of the necessaries of life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And THIS FATE is upon them through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, through no transgression of the laws of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a BIGOTED LUST FOR JEWISH BLOOD.
In this THREATENED HOLOCAUST OF HUMAN LIFE, forgotten are the niceties of philosophical distinction, forgotten are the differences of historical interpretation; and the determination to help the helpless, to shelter the homeless, to clothe the naked and to feed the hungry becomes a religion at whose altar men of every race can worship and women of every creed can kneel... "
Nowhere does it say 6 million were killed, just that the 6 million Jews living in the area were under threat.The closest I could find beyond this speech is a reference to about 1600 Jews killed in the Ukraine in 1919.
For a view of what the "experts" say, try http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/ which comments on many of the theories used by the "revisionists" and http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html which contains responses to many of the IHR's views on the accuracy of the holocaust.
Ignorance is Bliss
I have read this thread with shock, disdain and saddness.
Kathleen claims that Jews had accussed the Germans of a Holocaust in WWI. Here is an exerpt from the website that she had quoted.
"Writers: Jamie McCarthy and Ken McVay
On January 30, 1994, Dan Gannon posted an article to UseNet's newsgroup alt.revisionism that asserted that the Jews had claimed that there was a Holocaust during World War I:
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBORS.
Mr. Gannon would do well to heed his own advice, as we will see...
Though few remember, there was supposedly a Jewish "Holocaust" during World War I, in addition to the Jewish "Holocaust" of World War II! Not only that, but the number of victims was claimed, both times, to have been SIX MILLION!!! The "evil" Germans supposedly did it TWICE! Actually, they never even did it ONCE.
The FIRST alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" has been forgotten, but the SECOND alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" is today a highly-promoted OFFICIAL TRUTH.
The reason the first "Holocaust" story was discarded is, I think, related to the saying, "If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried." They failed to convince everyone the first time, so they quit publicizing it. Then they tried the same stunt again later, after World War II, and now they've got most people believing it! But that is changing.
SIX MILLION JEWS exterminated during World War I, too?!?
In a major speech in October, 1919, in Albany, New York, Martin Glenn (a past governor of New York) reported at length to a rapt audience on "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry" during "the Great War" (i.e., World War I).
This now rarely-remembered claim was publicized in, among others, the October 31, 1919, issue of the American Hebrew Magazine, published by the American Jewish Committee. [1]
First of all, Martin's last name is Glynn. Let's assume that to be a typographical error or a mistranscription.
Secondly, there is no indication within the article itself that the text originated as a speech.
It is important to note that nowhere in the text is any mention made of "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry during the Great War".
In fact, there is no mention made of "extermination" at all.
The article is instead about the threat of starvation to about seven million people (six million Jewish adults and eight hundred thousand children). Neither is there any mention of "Germans" in the text, and it would be a far stretch to even claim that it was implied; no mention is even made of the war.
Except for the fact that the word "Holocaust" is used in the original article, Mr. Gannon has completely misrepresented the original text. (Even in this instance, the original text is at variance with Mr. Gannon's claims, as it warns about a "threatened holocaust," and does not make any reference to one actually having occurred.)
Recently, the Institute for Historical Review has also seen fit to present this article from American Hebrew Magazine. "
I have read this thread with shock, disdain and saddness.
Kathleen claims that Jews had accussed the Germans of a Holocaust in WWI. Here is an exerpt from the website that she had quoted.
"Writers: Jamie McCarthy and Ken McVay
On January 30, 1994, Dan Gannon posted an article to UseNet's newsgroup alt.revisionism that asserted that the Jews had claimed that there was a Holocaust during World War I:
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBORS.
Mr. Gannon would do well to heed his own advice, as we will see...
Though few remember, there was supposedly a Jewish "Holocaust" during World War I, in addition to the Jewish "Holocaust" of World War II! Not only that, but the number of victims was claimed, both times, to have been SIX MILLION!!! The "evil" Germans supposedly did it TWICE! Actually, they never even did it ONCE.
The FIRST alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" has been forgotten, but the SECOND alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" is today a highly-promoted OFFICIAL TRUTH.
The reason the first "Holocaust" story was discarded is, I think, related to the saying, "If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried." They failed to convince everyone the first time, so they quit publicizing it. Then they tried the same stunt again later, after World War II, and now they've got most people believing it! But that is changing.
SIX MILLION JEWS exterminated during World War I, too?!?
In a major speech in October, 1919, in Albany, New York, Martin Glenn (a past governor of New York) reported at length to a rapt audience on "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry" during "the Great War" (i.e., World War I).
This now rarely-remembered claim was publicized in, among others, the October 31, 1919, issue of the American Hebrew Magazine, published by the American Jewish Committee. [1]
First of all, Martin's last name is Glynn. Let's assume that to be a typographical error or a mistranscription.
Secondly, there is no indication within the article itself that the text originated as a speech.
It is important to note that nowhere in the text is any mention made of "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry during the Great War".
In fact, there is no mention made of "extermination" at all.
The article is instead about the threat of starvation to about seven million people (six million Jewish adults and eight hundred thousand children). Neither is there any mention of "Germans" in the text, and it would be a far stretch to even claim that it was implied; no mention is even made of the war.
Except for the fact that the word "Holocaust" is used in the original article, Mr. Gannon has completely misrepresented the original text. (Even in this instance, the original text is at variance with Mr. Gannon's claims, as it warns about a "threatened holocaust," and does not make any reference to one actually having occurred.)
Recently, the Institute for Historical Review has also seen fit to present this article from American Hebrew Magazine. "
And GWB also came into to power legally (except for that Florida thing)..... However, there were many indications of the type of policies that GWB would be implementing???handsome sugardaddy said:
Are you telling me that Hitler's platform was "equal rights and freedom for all regardless of race or religion" I highly doubt it.
Are you tying to tell me that it came as a complete shock to the German people when he showed his true colors?
Are you trying to tell me that before the realized what was happening, Hitler had complete control of the armed forces, and complete control over all major departments in the government??
You have proven my point very well... this type of thing did not happen overnight... it was quite methodical and fed off the willingness of people to turn a blind eye to the injusticies around them because it does not concern them or it is not happening to their people.......
So after a while, the german people probably started saying "well things are going pretty well, and the economy is strong.... so what does it hurt.... yes, I hear some rumblings about them being unfair to the Jews... but those Jews are a bit full of themselves sometimes...... no I don't think that they would go so far as mass executions...... etc. etc."
So Kathleen's "I don't believe that there was a holocaust where JEWS were BURNED to death, but there could have been some sort of genocide...... but the Nazi's were not all that bad... only 10 Jews actually were killed, and the problem if it happened was only committed by Hitler and a few other really bad guys who were freaks... and all those people goose stepping were doing so under extreme duress ..........."
Let me break it down for you over this nonsensical debate:
1. The Germans were complicit in these crimes against the Jews and humanity
2. We know that there were tens, hundreds or millions of non Jewish Germans
were strongly against what Hitler and his group wanted and did
Unfortunately, we cannot go back and isolate each of those people.
But, I am sure that they know who they are
3. There are many, many Germans who committed terrible acts but did so
under fear for their lives.... I cannot say what I would do in that situation
However, I would still expect the world to hold me accountable... and that
is why we must hold them accountable... to do otherwise would be
unacceptable...
4. There were terrible losses on all sides of this war... however, the
Germans and their allies were the aggressors and therefore we feel
less inclined to have sympathy for them
5. My ex-girlfriend was born and raised and still lives in Germany... her
grandfather served in the war... They have a better attitude about this
than people like Kathleen... their attitude is simply "our forefathers
did terrible things, we are very sorry for the things that they did. We
are not those people... so lets move on...
6. These CRASS attempts to minimize the damage that was done is
unacceptable..
7. Re: Kathleen, it is obvious to most of us that she is not just trying to
debate the validity of the numbers of Jews killed... there is much more
on her agenda... if you have read her posts and are unable to see what
that agenda is, then there is no need to ask me the question...
8. The fact is that terrible crimes were committed by Germans against the
Jews... whether it was 1 million or 10 million is of little consequence
except to REAL historians... whether you agree with the term/definition
of "holocaust" is again of no consequence......
Gas Chambers at Dachau http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/
Gas Chambers
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Gaskammern.html
Here is a letter from a soldier on liberating Dachau
http://www.remember.org/witness/cowling.html
Liberation of the camps
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/camps.html
More photos by US Army
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__...tern_Conc/liberation_of_the_western_conc.html
Gas Chambers
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Gaskammern.html
Here is a letter from a soldier on liberating Dachau
http://www.remember.org/witness/cowling.html
Liberation of the camps
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/camps.html
More photos by US Army
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__...tern_Conc/liberation_of_the_western_conc.html
