How do sting operations work?

[streetwise]

I mean prostitution busts. Not drug busts, guns, or counterfeiting.
How do cops set up surveillance at a suspected incall?
Do they plant a female cop and place ads?
Do they watch a known SP as she sets up in a motel or temporary location?

Are they after the pimps who are "living off the avails of prositituion"?
Are they after the SP, the clients, or something bigger that we don't even know about???

Anyone here have factual experience with these questions please?
I am hoping that this inquiry is no different than asking for details about an SP's service.
However I doubt that anyone here is ready to "take one for the team" so to speak.

Thanks

 

[krayjee]

I think they are only after those who are dealing with under age girls, drugs, human trafficking or complaints from neighbors. Most stings only take place in street prostitutions. They know there are lots of indies and agencies operating in GTA.

 

[streetwise]

Right here in Toronto

 

[krayjee]

Right here in Toronto

You don't need to worry much here in TO so long as the lady is not a screamer like the one we had here a few yrs back. She was a university student from Peterborough. A few neighbors complained she moaned too loud and she was taken to court by neighbors. LE has no choice in that case.

 

[fuji]

I don't believe an incall "honey trap" is actually possible under Canadian law. Police could certainly keep watch on an incall and then rush in and bust everyone, but they can't operate a fake incall the way US police do.

The reason is that the charge is actually being "found in" a place that is commonly resorted to for prostitution. Your intent does not matter, you are guilty if you are "found in" such a place. Therefore a fake incall is not actually an incall and you have not actually been "found in" one. You have been "found in" a honey trap, which is not illegal, as no actual prostitution ever takes place there. Your intent to be in an incall is irrelevant, you are not in one, and so not guilty of anything. Of course they could raid a real one, but it's a lot more work--not a sting.

Most police stings in Toronto relate to street walking where the charge is communicating for the purposes, and so if you communicate for the purposes with an undercover you ARE guilty, and Toronto police do that routinely.

There cannot be any such thing as a sting for outcall services because outcall is entirely legal, there is no crime to commit that they could arrest you for.

 

[red]

sting operation:


unsuspecting hobbyist responds to ad from "honey"

unsuspecting hobbyist meets honey at her home hive

cops wearing bee costumes enter room with guns shooting honeycomb cereal.

 

[LordLoki]

fuji is basically correct.

If you communicate to set up prostitution on the street or in a bar, you can be charged. They set up stings often for that.

If someone complains about an in-call, the police will often raid it. If you are in it, you will be charged as a found in.

Out-calls (assuming no other laws are broken) are legal.

 

[sidebanger]

I was a participant in a bust (unwilling).
- They get a complaint (In this case the neighbours said they saw under aged girls. I didn't see any - few visits)
- They set up surveillance. Camera in lobby. Guys outside. Camera on door of apartment.
- They choose a time when the place is busy
- They move in. Very fast. Get the door open and come in with a half dozen guys. Guns drawn and pointed.
- Bang on the bedroom door. Yelling, "POLICE. OPEN THE DOOR, NOW!!! OPEN THE DOOR!!! NOW!!! AND KEEP YOUR HANDS VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES!!!! GET THIS DOOR OPEN!!!
- You shit yourself. Put your pants on and open the door. Two or three guns pointed at your head. You shit yourself again.
- They check your ID. In my case, no under aged girls were found. They let me go. No charges. You shit yourself again. This time it feels good.
- Odds of this happening to you? Roughly 1000 to 1. Your odds increase dramatically if you are going to a busy place with more than two girls.

Important to note.... the police were very professional, polite (even a sense of humour once things had settled down). I never had a sense of being judged for being in the place. They were looking for young girls.
-The women working at this place did not seem to be slaves. I am only surmising this because they were a happy bunch.

The girl I was with was a great time. Too bad. I didn't go back to the place to see her again. There are a few other incalls in this same building.

 

[legmann]

I don't believe an incall "honey trap" is actually possible under Canadian law.

Exactly; it is 'entrapment'.

Important to note.... the police were very professional, polite (even a sense of humour once things had settled down). I never had a sense of being judged for being in the place. They were looking for young girls.

Good to know!

 

[oldjones]

fuji's right, and many many posts before him have said as much: Canadian law makes it impossible to sting johns by setting up a fake incall. It is legal to buy sex in Canada, but illegal to operate the place where it's bought and sold. So the cops would a) have to deliver the sex and b) by doing so would be committing the 'primary' offence of operating a bawdyhouse. Once it was established that there was a bawdyhouse, then and only then, could the johns be convicted as found-ins.

sidebanger's story is the only likely possibility in Toronto or anywhere else in Canada, but it's straightforward police, observe and apprehend stuff and not a sting.

The sting we most have to be afraid of is the B&S by the operators. Or the straightforward badger game and theft stuff by their muscle.

Aside: I believe Canadian courts have been much more understanding of the difficulties of police work in their rulings on entrapment. Not a very strong defence in Canada.

 

[sidebanger]

No, it has nothing to do with entrapment. Read the many posts above. The charge for "Johns" is being "found-in" a place that sells sex. How can the police set-up a place that actually sells sex in order for them to bust Johns? The police would face a charge of living off the avails, coercing people into a brothel, etc... All those are illegal for the police to do. Entrapment never enters the picture as a legal concept here.

While I am not trained in law, this seems logical. Otherwise the fake street hookers would be deemed entrapment.

 

[maurice93]

There was a massage place in an apartment building in Ottawa that was raided about 5 years ago.

I was there about a month before the raid. I remember that time well, because I got wet paint all over my pants and shirt. There was a guy painting the door frames around that apartment, and while opening the door slightly to let me in, I got some paint over me. It wouldn't surprise if that guy was gathering traffic flow information.

I didn't have a good vibe in my hour there and would never return because it seemed strange (also in part because its typical mediocore Ottawa service and looks as well)

 

[sidebanger]

Not quite. Fake streetwalkers, I.e. undercover police women on the streets DO exist. You would be charged with communicating for the purposes of solicitation in a public place.

I understand that they exist. That is why I used them as an example.
The point I so poorly made was that if a fake incall was considered entrapment - cops posing as hookers would likely also be considered entrapment. Therefore... this would not likely be the reason there are no fake incalls.

 

[oldjones]

While I am not trained in law, this seems logical. Otherwise the fake street hookers would be deemed entrapment.

In any case, if you're talking streetwalkers, the offences there are quite different from incalls and quite easy to set up a sting for. As a john you are in deep shit for communicating with anyone in a public place to arrange for prostitution. So a reasonably attractive policewoman who tempts you into rolling down your window and making a pitch is quite a likely prospect. Not a possibility with an incall, or an outcall.

 

[legmann]

coercing people into a brothel, etc....

By definition, that is entrapment.

 

[sidebanger]

In any case, if you're talking streetwalkers, the offences there are quite different from incalls and quite easy to set up a sting for. As a john you are in deep shit for communicating with anyone in a public place to arrange for prostitution. So a reasonably attractive policewoman who tempts you into rolling down your window and making a pitch is quite a likely prospect. Not a possibility with an incall, or an outcall.

Yes, and as long as the undercover cop doesn't solicit you first.

 

[maurice93]

I understand that they exist. That is why I used them as an example.
The point I so poorly made was that if a fake incall was considered entrapment - cops posing as hookers would likely also be considered entrapment. Therefore... this would not likely be the reason there are no fake incalls.

The reason there are no fake incalls is because the crimes for them are found in "Bawdy House" related. If it's fake it can't be a bawdy house.

 

[afx]

how about asking a random girl online for sex for money? i.e. on the chat room here - is that illegal? is the chat room considered a public place?

what about if I go onto a dating website and exchange an email with a girl and say "hey, what if i were to pay you money for sex?" can this be illegal? could a cop making a fake profile on a dating website (i.e. lavalife, plentyoffish) 'bust' guys for 'communicating in a public place the intention to have sex for money'?

 

[fuji]

afx an online forum is not a public place. It may be public but it is not physically a place. It's similar to newspaper advertising which is also public and also not a place.

If you were trying to recruit a woman to work for your agency there are procuring laws that may apply, but if you were just trying to negotiate a deal for yourself it would not fall under the communicating provisions.

 

[oldjones]

Here's the deal: If others in the general population can overhear/read/see what you're asking and answering about sex for money, then you probably should find some other place to do it. But if you're both in a place where that's the normal sort of activity amongst folks who only came there for it, who is gonna complain?

If you really need more precise detail on legalities, take 4tees advice; if it's probabilities you're asking about, re-frame your question.

But yes to the general sense of stings in chatrooms; happens often in child-luring cases if you'll recall. The offense however isn't what is done on line it's the meeting with the under-age victim—or purported victim. Between consenting adults, again, the offence would have to be the 'bawdyhouse' thing. Which at least would men you'de get fucked in both senses of the word if the cops actually did such things.