I am getting tired of the rampant anti-israeli comments on this board

[themexi]

Now THAT is rich. Just had those Zionist massacre links perchance on hand, did you? Puhleeeeze.

Uly

Ulyssses, being on this board means that you are aware of the internet. As such you should also be aware of the speed at which one can aquire information using it. What difference does it make whether or not he had those Zionist massacre links perchance on hand or has previously researched the issue in depth?

For that matter, why single out DonQuixote for having actually researched the issue?

How ridiculous. The Israelis have been fighting a war for their very survival since 1948. The Arabs have been trying to eliminate the "Zionist entity" for almost 60 years. Do you honestly believe the Jews would be outside their 1948 boundaries if they hadn't been attacked in 1948, 1956, and 1967. Give me a break.

I noticed you made no mention of the above or any of the other well researched pro Israeli arguments. It would appear that you only seem to take issue with someone researching the issues when the imformation they find is contrary to your position.

Stating a the fact that Israel, like almost every other nation in history, was founded in violence does not bespeak of a prefernce. It is not in & of itself anti- Israel either. Accusing someone of being biased because the information they are providing is distaseful to you isn't helping anyone.

Perhaps instead of attempting to flippantly dismiss a person's researched opinion with personal jibes, you might want to actually read his source material & attempt to dismiss that opinion with the merits of your own. Please don't take this personal Ulyssses, I'm just saying that emotions are what they are. There's no point in getting emotional in a debate like this because it's next to impossible to change how one feels without 1st appealing to their reason. Only open dialogue on the facts will bring understanding & change someone's opinion.

 

[Perry Mason]

I thank all of you for engaging in a useful dialogue without all the "customary" hatred and b.s.

You too, smyth!

But it a much more complex problem than it appears to be:
- conflict and wars over these lands and Jerusalem, in particular, is not new: it has been going on for more than 3,000 years,
- Jerusalem is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike,
- the fundamental "legal" claims for Jews and Muslims are the same: it was given to us by God or Allah; we have occupied it for hundreds (thousands!) of years; we conquered it and to the winners go the spoils... etc., etc., etc...
- since 1973 (the Yom Kippur war) the violence has been an asymmetrical war: the weak versus the strong,
- Hamas and Hizbollah have bought into Mao Tse Tung's tactics concerning such wars: "The guerilla must move among the people as a fish swims in the sea,"
- the death of innocent civilians in Lebanon is the necessary consequence of the fact that the civilians harbour terrorists or allow them to "swim" amongst them without regard for the implications,
- the world is outraged by civilian deaths in Lebanon and Gaza/The West Bank, but not similarly outraged when a suicidal terrorist explodes himself in the midst of an Israeli market, restaurant or street,
- for Hizbollah and Hamas, destruction of Israel and Jews, is more important, even, than securing a viable Palestinian state,
- the "right of return" logic is equally valid for both Jews and Palestinians,
- water is, indeed, a seldom discussed but crucial issue...

The list is much, much longer... I am not attempting to be comprehensive, but only to point out just how complex the problem is.

Two factors enormously complicate matters:
- The extremist, violent and intolerant legacy of Ayatollah Khomeini towards the West and non-Muslims,
- the hatred of Israel and Jews instilled by Yasir Arafat and, now, Nasrallah.

Bottom line for me: the only just solution is a One State solution. It is not as quixotic as it might seem. There now exists substantial genetic research and evidence that proves that most Jews and 65% of Palestinians share unique DNA markers... which means that they are one and the same family. And both Jews and Muslims accept the authenticity of the proposition that we are children of Abraham.

Perry

 

[DATYdude]

mexi, your comment "neither party has more claim to this land than the other" doesn't make sense, we're talking about a Lebanese-based "army" attacking Israel with rockets, and crossing the border to attack and kidnap Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah has no claim to Israel, period.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

Tell the U.S. to stop supporting Israel with military arms and in general.

So that the Arab terrorist organizations can slaughter the Israelis?

 

[Cinema Face]

That’s an awesome story Peteeey. Very timely for what’s going on in the ME. That drunken marine bully is symbolic of much of the Islamic world. The small Latino boxer is much like Israel.

I’ll bet the bully learned something that nite. I’ll bet he never pulled that shit again.

Hopefully, the Muslims learn something here but not likely.

 

[Cinema Face]

If Hezbollah were to stop fighting, the fighting would end. If Israel would stop the fighting then Israel would end.

 

[Ulyssses]

If Hezbollah were to stop fighting, the fighting would end. If Israel would stop the fighting then Israel would end.

I think that sums up the reality of the situation rather succintly.

Uly

 

[themexi]

mexi, your comment "neither party has more claim to this land than the other" doesn't make sense, we're talking about a Lebanese-based "army" attacking Israel with rockets, and crossing the border to attack and kidnap Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah has no claim to Israel, period.

I agree with you that Hezbollah has no claim to Israel. However, when you say Hezbollah has no claim to Israel, "period", it appears that you are stating that this particular fact is the be-all & end-all of the overall issue here & that is where you are wrong.

Hezbollah's issue has never been to lay claim to the land Israel occupies. Hezbollah's issue is with the land being occupied by Israelis. That don't appear to want the land for themselves, & i bet their concern for the Palestinians is not the major issue either. They are quite clear in their opinion that they see Israel as a direct threat to it's neighbors. They are as right about this a the Israelis are about seeing the surrounding Arab nations as a threat to them.

When I said that neither party has more claim to this land than the other. I also pretty much stated that no party has less claim to this land than any other. As I said, this property currently named Israel has always been leased with blood; leased, not bought. If anyone had a truly indisputable claim to it there wouldn't be any fighting.

In a more direct response to "Hezbollah has no claim to Israel, period.", it is a foolish statement. History has shown that no one & also almost everyone can lay claim to the land Israel occupies as long as they can take it. Stating otherwise reveals a bias, perfectly understandable & reasonable, but a bias nonetheless & it completely disregards history & the reality that history reveals to us.

Even if Hezbollah wished to conquer the land & take it for themselves my statement would stand true. The promised land has always been for the taking. Lots of people have "owned" this land throughout history. If anyone honestly thinks that anyone can hold onto this land indefinitely they're wrong.

Condemning anyone for trying to conquer this land is foolish & overly sentimantal because by doing so, you condemn all who have: all the different peoples whose names ended in "ites", the Romans, the Crusaders, Saladin, the British, & the modern Israelis. At his point, if you condemn somene for trying to take this land you are either condemning the Israelis as well or you hare being hippocritical.

As for Hezbollah's tactics, yes we're talking about a Lebanese-based Army.
Yes Army not "army". I removed the quotes because whether one wishes to admit it or not, the Hezbollah party in fact has an army. They are a trained militia funded & armed with weaponry. They have a structure & they execute military objectives. You do a disservice to all by allowing your disagreement with their politics & tactics to alter the definition of what they are. You might as well call those that fought the American war of independance an "army" as well.

What ever you wish to call these people, addressing their attacking Israel with rockets & crossing the border to attack and kidnap Israeli soldiers. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Israel has launched Many rocket attacks into other countries to eliminate terrorists & those attacks have killed people other than the intended target Read Innocents). As far as crossing the odd border to fire said munitions & to kidnap foreign nationals from their own lands is something that the Israeli government does with some regularity.

Please explain to me why a group of Israelis enters a foreign land & abducts a foreign national it is called anything but kidnapping? Why is what happened to the Israeli soldiers Any different than what has been done to many Arab civilians?

Please explain to me why a group of Israelis enters a foreign land & Kills a foreign national it is called "Extrajudicial Execution" instead of Assassination or plain old Murder?

At his point, if you condemn somene for launching attacks into another states Soverign territory, you are either condemning the Israelis as well or you are being hippocritical.


My only point of contention with Israel it is not as much a matter of their deeds, as their obsession with distinguishing themselves as morally superior to their enemies. If they are going to conquer a land, they should just do it & call it like it is. If they see someone as a threat to them they should by all means flatten anything between them to eliminate the threat. There are enough historical precedents for all of these things that they need not justify themselves to anyone.

They must realize however that just because a people (any, not just them) sees themsevles as "chosen" or better than the rest in some way doesn't make it reality. Actual accomplishment through merit & action is all the entitlement anyone really deserves consideration for. When you take the whole religious entitlement issue on both sides out of the way, you are left with people fighting for their right to exist on the same plot of land.

The Israelis will not win their land or the right to live on it peacefully on the basis that they are god's chosen ones or because they are nice people. They will win those things by convincing those who contest their claim with reason or violence. Admittedly, the Israelis haven't been allowed to do much convincing with words.

Actually, this Lebanon campaign is extremely honest. They are basically saying: Look, this crap has gone on far enough, we know that we are harming a lot of innocent people, we know that the world will not be on our side, but screw it, we will do what's best for us. Since we're damned whether we do or don't we're going to do it & be good & goddamn sure we finish it too. Anyone who wants a peice of us come & take it if you can, but realize we are now racing for pinkslips.

This issue with Israel is not a big deal really. It's just that they want everyone to see them as the pure good guys & anyone who opposes them are the complete bad guys despite all the evidence that it's just not that simple.

It seems as though the term Anti-Semite is being thrown at people for simply disagreeing with anything having to do with Israel. That term should be reserved as a label for those bigoted pricks that actually hate someone for being Jewish. They are the ones who really deserve it, not someone with a political or philisophical disagreement with someone who is Pro-Israel or Pro-Zionist.

I understand the necessity of optics , public opinion & support, etc but Come On, already, the Israelis are no better & no worse than the Arabs, & vice-versa. God could be on either side or both, they seem to have the same playbook. The attitudes are basically the same "Our Land,not Theirs!!!". The tactics are basically the same. Invading is invading, killing is killing, & conquest is conquest. Hell, call it Fluffy Bunny for all I care; a rose by any other name smells just a sweet & a corpse by any other name still reeks of death.







Once again, I feel the need to state my Political & Intellectual neutrality. I should also state that I too, am a victim of my personal feelings being definitely biased despite this neutrality. Please let me explain. From an intellectual standpoint I do not care how all of this ends so long as it does. I have no issue with either sides' tactics or beliefs, they are what they are & I believe all things occur due to sufficient cause.
From a Political standpoint, I perceive the risks of overtly & openly supporting Israel to outweigh the benefits. Politically, I think it is a mistake to enforce a moral opinion on one's people; it is always devisive & human nature is such that people will continue to thin & feel as they will despite political decree & therefore unenforceable.
From a Personal standpoint, however, I am not so neutral. I realize that if Israel stops fighting it would end. I personally do not wish to see that happen. It's not just that some of people I care deeply about are Israelis, that alone wouldn't do it. I personally find the Israeli people & what have done to be remarkable, I personally prefer that they continue to exist. But that is my personal opinion. I will speak for no one save for myself & I have taken great pains to ensure my argument only discusses the issues, not dictate belief. All I hope for is that I will be shown the same consideration in kind.

 

[Perry Mason]

themexi,

I don't agree with much of what you say...

But I only want to comment on one thing you say that, obviously, you (and many others) absolutely don't understand: the idea of "Chosen People" has never been that we are privileged or better than others... indeed, in many ways the exact opposite.

It means Jews were chosen (by God) to fulfill some very onerous duties and obligations -- a very difficult burden of integrity, morality and ethics -- that has not been placed on others.

And just so that no one misunderstands, I am not saying that over the course of history they have done so... at times, yes; at times, no. It's no easy task in a hypocritical world to live and be judged by a different standard than applied to all other nations of the world.

Perry

 

[LancsLad]

themexi,

I don't agree with much of what you say...

But I only want to comment on one thing you say that, obviously, you (and many others) absolutely don't understand: the idea of "Chosen People" has never been that we are privileged or better than others... indeed, in many ways the exact opposite.

It means Jews were chosen (by God) to fulfill some very onerous duties and obligations -- a very difficult burden of integrity, morality and ethics -- that has not been placed on others.

And just so that no one misunderstands, I am not saying that over the course of history they have done so... at times, yes; at times, no. It's no easy task in a hypocritical world to live and be judged by a different standard than applied to all other nations of the world.

Perry

OH boo hoo. But you are right on one point, it is damned tough being ENGLISH in such an imperfect world.




.

 

[allaboutben]

Sorry, but Muslims believe that all the land occupied by Israel belongs to their people as per the prophet Muhammed. Jews feel the opposite. Until religion is removed from this equation, there will always be problems there.

 

[DATYdude]

mexi, I agree with your post almost completely, except for your misunderstanding about "chosen people", and also the conception that Jews think all criticism of Israel is anti-semitism -- some of it is, some of it ain't. I don't think it's so bad to allow Jews to be the arbiters of anti-semitism, since we are the experts. The irony is that the criticism is a bit anti-semitic too. If you look closely you'll see that many Jews are very active and vocal of their crticism of Israel.

Anyway, find me examples of Jews attacking critics of Israel or its government as anti-semitic and maybe I can explain why a comment may be interpreted as anti-semitic. Give it a shot anyway.

 

[DATYdude]

Oh and I'll also note that this point that we don't attack defenseless KFCs when someone publishes offensive cartoons...

 

[themexi]

themexi,

I don't agree with much of what you say...

But I only want to comment on one thing you say that, obviously, you (and many others) absolutely don't understand: the idea of "Chosen People" has never been that we are privileged or better than others... indeed, in many ways the exact opposite.

It means Jews were chosen (by God) to fulfill some very onerous duties and obligations -- a very difficult burden of integrity, morality and ethics -- that has not been placed on others.

And just so that no one misunderstands, I am not saying that over the course of history they have done so... at times, yes; at times, no. It's no easy task in a hypocritical world to live and be judged by a different standard than applied to all other nations of the world.

Perry

Thank you for your courteous response, Perry. We needn't agree on anything to have a civil discourse. In fact, if we agreed on everything this would be neither a debate nor a discussion, it would be a convention; & conventions can be so very boring.

But I do have to voice a disagreement to your disagreement. I do, in fact, understand the idea & concept of a "Chosen People".

I understand that it is said that it is believed that god chose the Jewish people for the task of creating a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation. This burden also includes demonstrating to the world by example that god exists & takes an active interest in mankind. No small task there. I am aware of the difficulties in following the 613 Mitzvot & I am aware of the idea that the Jews are to suffer more than most peoples do in the pursuit of acheiving these tasks. I understand that the designation of chosen people does not, in & of itself make Jews better. They believe themselves to have been selected to play for higher stakes than the rest of us. Greater pain for greater rewards is a concept that even an agnostic such as myself can readily relate to & respect.

I am definitely not arguing that the Jews don't have taken on some heavy obligations. What I am arguing is that from the perspective of someone who is currently a non believer in any religion, objective observation will tell you that this conceit is by no means exclusive to any one religion & by no means makes any people particularly special.

Almost every religion believes that its followers were chosen (by their God) to fulfill some very onerous duties and obligations. One may not be faulted in thinking that this seems to be a theme in most religions. The fact is that almost every religion believes that they have been given a very difficult burden of integrity, morality and ethics that has not been placed on others. In the end, shouldering the burdens & obligations that whatever god you believe in has given you make you as unique, special, & entitled as just about everyone else.

Although the issues of religion seem to be the issue with the land, I contend that it too is only part of the story. Christians go to war with christians, muslims with other muslims, & while no incident comes to mind, I'm sure the jews have suffered the odd internal squabble as well. If you really pay attention to what all sides are communicating, this conflict is firstly about land, secondly about culture, & religion is a distant third.

The bottom line is that I believe what Israel is & what it will be, like any other nation, is entirely determined by the people that make up the nation. This is true whether or not one believes in the concept of god or of being chosen.

I believe that all the suffering & exiles, & expulsions have helped to shape & mold the Jewish people into a very tight knit, rich, interesting culture worthy of respect. The result of all of this may actually lead eventually to a nation of people so experienced in the ins & outs of polotics, of morality, of the good & the bad in the world that their experiences could be condensed & shared to benefit all of mankind. Who knows? Maybe that was how god planned it. That might be how I would want it to turn out If I had a say. Even if there is no god, the results could be beautiful enough to make all but the most stubborn believe.

Peace,

 

[Ulyssses]

Ulyssses, being on this board means that you are aware of the internet. As such you should also be aware of the speed at which one can aquire information using it. ......

......Perhaps instead of attempting to flippantly dismiss a person's researched opinion with personal jibes, you might want to actually read his source material & attempt to dismiss that opinion with the merits of your own. Please don't take this personal Ulyssses, I'm just saying that emotions are what they are.

Really? Golly gee willikers, I had no idea how this whole internet thing worked until your most helpful post. Thanks so much. And as for me taking it personally? Don't worry - I'd have to value your opinion of me in some way shape or form in order to take it personally, and I sure don't. So rest easy, okay chum?

I sure hate to come across sounding like that dipsh!t Tory MacKay, but it's not real hard to figure the right and wrong of this thing. I don't have a hard time choosing between a sovereign nation fighting to preserve the security of it's citizens - and even its very existence - and a bunch of murderous terrorist thugs. Remember 911? Those that say it has nothing to do with the present conflict are taking a conveniently narrow view. It is the same disease, just a different outbreak. Terrorists revel in the killing of civilians as a means of political persuasion. They seek to accomplish their goals by instilling shock, horror and fear in their enemies. I could care less what shred of legitimacy their goals might have, I will publicly deplore their methods each and every time. They are the single most dangerous and de-stabilizing force in the world today. You can't reason with them - they are consumed by hate. You can't negotiate with them - that legitimizes their methods. But you can hunt them and kill them.

Now, civilian casualties are a fact of war as long as war has existed. Which is to say, forever. Israel wages war when it is attacked and has had to do so to ensure its survival ever since its modern inception. Civilians die when wars happen, but in my view, only a terroroist extremist could reasonably believe that Israel goes out of its way to target civilians. They have the capability to wipe Beirut off the map, if they choose to. If the wholesale murder of Arab civilians was their goal, it would have been accomplished long ago. Now, if Hezbollah or Hammas had the same capability, do you honestly believe Israel would still exist today? Not a freakin' chance.

Those that sit there taking an a$$ f@cking from the fence post, rubbing their chins in deep contemplation of the moral murkiness of it all make me want to laugh.

Terrorists aren't interested in a negotiated peace with Israel. They are interested in the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians could have had a brokered peace deal long ago, until Arafat decided it was more fun to kill Jews and re-commenced a rampage that continues to burn at present. And just in case there is any doubt about Palestinian intent, let us not forget that they made a democratic choice spelling out their intent in big, bold blood-red letters. They could have chosen to keep a government that had already taken several steps down the road to a brokered peace with Israel and bearing the only real legitimate hope of bringing such a peace to fruition. Instead, they elected Hamas - an organization bent on Israel's utter destruction. Are you capable of reading the ever so subtle message in that choice? If you aren't, then you must be suffering from a terminal case of wilful blindness. It would be akin to the US stating that they are commited to racial equality, then electing the Ku Klux Klan to a majority government. Only the staggeringly naive could fail to see such glaring inconsistency between words and deeds.

So you bet I do take sides. I am not hiding behind some intellectual veneer of fence-sitting navel-gazing nonsense. Israel is doing what it must. It is ugly, unpalatable, tragic and necessary. When SOMEBODY can occupy southern Lebanon and keep Hezbollah the hell out, Israel will gladly depart. Until then, they are quite right to say that the protection of their citizens comes first.

Uly

 

[Perry Mason]

If you really pay attention to what all sides are communicating, this conflict is firstly about land, secondly about culture, & religion is a distant third.

Tha's too oversimplified for me. It is that, but also has many other components.

The bottom line is that I believe what Israel is & what it will be, like any other nation, is entirely determined by the people that make up the nation. This is true whether or not one believes in the concept of god or of being chosen.

On this, we are in agreement. We may get there by much different facts and reasoning, but that is what makes life -- and discussions such as this -- interesting.

Who knows? Maybe that was how god planned it. That might be how I would want it to turn out If I had a say. Even if there is no god, the results could be beautiful enough to make all but the most stubborn believe.

Peace,

Very enlightened for an agnostic!!!

Perry

 

[Don]

Why not tell us about the poeple who flew planes into the World Trade Center. I would like to know something you know alittle more about.

He'll probably tell you it was the Isreali's. That is a popular theory from people on one side of the fence

 

[basketcase]

...
I have been reading this thread and boy has the Arab propaganda machine worked wonders on people. Lets clarify a point - The West Bank does not belong to the Palestinian people, it belongs to Jordan who kicked out the PLO because they where major shit disturbers. The Golan Heights, great place for artillery - why would Israel want to give this back considering the relationship with Syria. The Gaza Strip - this was owned and run by Egypt until 1967 and when Sadat received the Sinai back in exchange for a peace treaty, he didn't want the Gaza - gee I wonder why.

Of the three, the Golan is the only land occupied against the previous owners will. Both Jordan and Egypt have screwed their bretheren (to simplify things for themselves) and gave official authority to Israel. I don't believe it will help for Israel to keep it though unless they want to get rid of all the former Jordanians and Egyptians.

 

[james t kirk]

This struggle has been going on for what is beginning
to seem like an eternity.

This Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the most important
issue in the ME. There will be no peace, security and
economic stability in the region until there is a final
resolution of their differences.

Problem is, both sides have blood on their hands.

Problem is, the US used to be an honest broker.
But that's now in the past tense.

Who will be the honest broker to arbitrate the
disputes in the future? Who will come forward
from both Israel and Palestine to compromise
the intransigent differences between the parties?

I'm both anti-Israeli and anti-Palestinian. I've had
it with both. Neither party has earned or deserves
my respect.

Militant Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists -
what's the difference?

Could not have said it better myself.

Although, this latest round of bullshit, I blame Israel to about 90%. This is way over done and they are simply targeting the entire country of Lebenon without care for anything but themselves.

 

[DATYdude]

You blame Israel 90% for not caring about anyone but themselves, when Hezbollah has 1300 rockets aimed at them?

Would someone beam the Captain up please, he's been on Uranus for too long...

Could not have said it better myself.

Although, this latest round of bullshit, I blame Israel to about 90%. This is way over done and they are simply targeting the entire country of Lebenon without care for anything but themselves.