IRAN: it has started. I can feel it.

Aardvark154

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I'm glad that you've changed your tune Persis! :)

The democraphics involved certainly fit the pattern of Crane Brinton"s The Anatomy of Revolution.
 

papasmerf

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Best thing you can do is get your American hating Islamic media outlets to report the truth.

We know from past experience that CNN will only report what they are told to, in order the have a presence in a country.

So your best bet is to appeal to the media which has unrestricted access there.

Beyond that get an army of reporters with the willingness to risk their lives to show what is happening.

You might be seeing a turn towards democracy and a people willing to embrace personal freedom while never forgetting their religious identity. I know to many personal freedom is a foreign ideal but you will find most humans like it once they have tasted it. Look at yourself if you were in an Islamic country could you post on an Escort Review Board and ask capitolist pigs and religious infidels to help get the word out?
 

Cinema Face

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Wow! That’s quite the demonstration. Certainly there is the anger on the street needed to start a revolution. Iran needs a revolutionary leader to harness all that built up will for change.

I hope it happens. But don’t get your hopes up too high.

BTW, those 3 girls in your pic are cute. :p
 

Rockslinger

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Secret_Admirer said:
Armed revolution is the only solution.
But, but it is the mullahs who have the arms. Unarmed citizens don't stand a chance against armed thugs willing to kill. Remember what happened in Burma? Remember what happened in the PRC in 1989?
 

persis

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I have received information [from a captured police man] that anti-riot personnel are actually Arab mercenaries, they only speak arabic...
 

Cheeta

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Secret_Admirer said:
I really sincerely hope that you are right but I have the opposite feeling. The murderous Islamic regime will crack down on the nation by mass intimidation and mass arrests as they have done in the past. Demonstrations will last a few more days only and will not be allowed to spread. The rule of terror will continue and our nation will continue to live in hell under imposed forceful Islamic rule. I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
Well said. I think our brave young people will continue this struggle. This is the first time in 30 years that people of Iran have shown definace despite being unarmed against the thugs.

Cheeta
 

slidebone

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Dec 6, 2004
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I'm wondering how many people are actually protesting. I know that in the 1979 revolution, many millions of people took to the streets.

It is the size of the protest that will decide if the government falls. Even if the protests are tens of thousands strong, I don't think that is nearly enough.

Also, I wonder if there will be counter demonstrations in support of Ahmadinejad, or perhaps they have already began, since it seems that Ahmadinejad has plenty of supporters, whether the election was rigged or not.

Another thing, the 1979 protests occurred over many months, in waves. The fall of the Shah was really the culmination of several years of protest and opposition, and the result of all the Shah's political enemies unifying against him. It is probably too much to hope that Iran will see another revolution now.
 

Mervyn

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I thinking the protesters have to do more than simply proclaim their displeasure in the results of the election . . they will also have to make it clear they no longer support Ali Khamene.

Even if the election had gone their way, I don't think there would have been much change with him around.
 

scouser1

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Dec 7, 2001
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Secret_Admirer said:
As I have told you again and again THIS IS A SECOND ARAB INVASION as many Iranians are saying. They invaded 1400 years ago and destroyed our rich Persian culture and these arab sympatizer cockroaches, the ruling clergy are now supressing anything Persian and forcefully imposing the backward violent arab culture imposed on our nation by invasion. These mercenaries are likely the Palestinians who you have been so strongly supporting in the past.
oh stop blaming others and start blaming the fascist oligarchs that run that country,no its not the Arabs, Jews, Americans, Westerners that have messed it up!!! and the Shah was such an awesome progressive guy with his Savak hmm I bet :rolleyes:

and the problem here is that you have a government that has no problem killing thousands in a single day, but the Shah didnt have that problem either and well we all know what happened to him
 

Asterix

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Idiotic really. Most polls showed it would be a very close election and Ahmadinejad winds up beating his closest rival by 2 to 1. If he wanted to steal the election he could have at least made it look more convincing.
 

persis

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John Simpson
Reporting from Tehran


A crowd of about 3,000 attacked the police, some of whom were on motorbikes, which they set on fire.

The sky was thick with black smoke. Police attacked the crowd with sticks and maybe teargas.

I didn't expect to see people turning on the secret police. We were filming when we were surrounded by angry secret policemen. The crowd turned on them and chased them off.

I suspect we are not looking at a revolution but there is serious anger.

It all depends on how the government responds - if they use violence, that could inflame the situation.
 

Aardvark154

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This is a decision of the Iranian people to make.

Thak said, needless to say I hope that the forces of moderation manage to overcome the forces of reaction.
 

Aardvark154

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persis said:
I suspect we are not looking at a revolution but there is serious anger.
As I've posted before it may not happen within the next week, but if this keeps up, it is well within the pattern Crain Brinton described in The Anatomy of Revolution. Which by the way the “first” Iranian Revolution fit .

However like the reign of terror in the French Revolution, what they thought they would happen and what actually did happen were two entirely separate things.
 

persis

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From Juan Cole: Stealing the Iranian Election

Top Pieces of Evidence that the Iranian Presidential Election Was Stolen

http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/13/alerts-from-tehran/
1. It is claimed that Ahmadinejad won the city of Tabriz with 57%. His main opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is an Azeri from Azerbaijan province, of which Tabriz is the capital. Mousavi, according to such polls as exist in Iran and widespread anecdotal evidence, did better in cities and is popular in Azerbaijan. Certainly, his rallies there were very well attended. So for an Azeri urban center to go so heavily for Ahmadinejad just makes no sense. In past elections, Azeris voted disproportionately for even minor presidential candidates who hailed from that province.

2. Ahmadinejad is claimed to have taken Tehran by over 50%. Again, he is not popular in the cities, even, as he claims, in the poor neighborhoods, in part because his policies have produced high inflation and high unemployment. That he should have won Tehran is so unlikely as to raise real questions about these numbers. [Ahmadinejad is widely thought only to have won Tehran in 2005 because the pro-reform groups were discouraged and stayed home rather than voting.)

3. It is claimed that cleric Mehdi Karoubi, the other reformist candidate, received 320,000 votes, and that he did poorly in Iran's western provinces, even losing in Luristan. He is a Lur and is popular in the west, including in Kurdistan. Karoubi received 17 percent of the vote in the first round of presidential elections in 2005. While it is possible that his support has substantially declined since then, it is hard to believe that he would get less than one percent of the vote. Moreover, he should have at least done well in the west, which he did not.

4. Mohsen Rezaie, who polled very badly and seems not to have been at all popular, is alleged to have received 670,000 votes, twice as much as Karoubi.

5. Ahmadinejad's numbers were fairly standard across Iran's provinces. In past elections there have been substantial ethnic and provincial variations.

6. The Electoral Commission is supposed to wait three days before certifying the results of the election, at which point they are to inform Khamenei of the results, and he signs off on the process. The three-day delay is intended to allow charges of irregularities to be adjudicated. In this case, Khamenei immediately approved the alleged results.

I am aware of the difficulties of catching history on the run. Some explanation may emerge for Ahmadinejad's upset that does not involve fraud. For instance, it is possible that he has gotten the credit for spreading around a lot of oil money in the form of favors to his constituencies, but somehow managed to escape the blame for the resultant high inflation.

But just as a first reaction, this post-election situation looks to me like a crime scene. And here is how I would reconstruct the crime.

As the real numbers started coming into the Interior Ministry late on Friday, it became clear that Mousavi was winning. Mousavi's spokesman abroad, filmmaker Mohsen Makhbalbaf, alleges that the ministry even contacted Mousavi's camp and said it would begin preparing the population for this victory.

The ministry must have informed Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, who has had a feud with Mousavi for over 30 years, who found this outcome unsupportable. And, apparently, he and other top leaders had been so confident of an Ahmadinejad win that they had made no contingency plans for what to do if he looked as though he would lose.

They therefore sent blanket instructions to the Electoral Commission to falsify the vote counts.

This clumsy cover-up then produced the incredible result of an Ahmadinejad landlside in Tabriz and Isfahan and Tehran.

The reason for which Rezaie and Karoubi had to be assigned such implausibly low totals was to make sure Ahmadinejad got over 51% of the vote and thus avoid a run-off between him and Mousavi next Friday, which would have given the Mousavi camp a chance to attempt to rally the public and forestall further tampering with the election.

This scenario accounts for all known anomalies and is consistent with what we know of the major players.

More in my column, just out, in Salon.com: "Ahmadinejad reelected under cloud of fraud," where I argue that the outcome of the presidential elections does not and should not affect Obama's policies toward that country-- they are the right policies and should be followed through on regardless.

The public demonstrations against the result don't appear to be that big. In the past decade, reformers have always backed down in Iran when challenged by hardliners, in part because no one wants to relive the horrible Great Terror of the 1980s after the revolution, when faction-fighting produced blood in the streets. Mousavi is still from that generation.

My own guess is that you have to get a leadership born after the revolution, who does not remember it and its sanguinary aftermath, before you get people willing to push back hard against the rightwingers.

So, there are protests against an allegedly stolen election. The Basij paramilitary thugs and the Iranian Revolutionary Guards will break some heads. Unless there has been a sea change in Iran, the theocrats may well get away with this soft coup for the moment. But the regime's legitimacy will take a critical hit, and its ultimate demise may have been hastened, over the next decade or two.

What I've said is full of speculation and informed guesses. I'd be glad to be proved wrong on several of these points. Maybe I will be.

PS: Here's the data:
 

persis

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From Gary Sick: Iran’s political coup

If the reports coming out of Tehran about an electoral coup are sustained, then Iran has entered an entirely new phase of its post-revolution history. One characteristic that has always distinguished Iran from the crude dictators in much of the rest of the Middle East was its respect for the voice of the people, even when that voice was saying things that much of the leadership did not want to hear.

In 1997, Iran’s hard line leadership was stunned by the landslide election of Mohammed Khatami, a reformer who promised to bring rule of law and a more human face to the harsh visage of the Iranian revolution. It took the authorities almost a year to recover their composure and to reassert their control through naked force and cynical manipulation of the constitution and legal system. The authorities did not, however, falsify the election results and even permitted a resounding reelection four years later. Instead, they preferred to prevent the president from implementing his reform program.

In 2005, when it appeared that no hard line conservative might survive the first round of the presidential election, there were credible reports of ballot manipulation to insure that Mr Ahmadinejad could run (and win) against former president Rafsanjani in the second round. The lesson seemed to be that the authorities might shift the results in a close election but they would not reverse a landslide vote.

The current election appears to repudiate both of those rules. The authorities were faced with a credible challenger, Mir Hossein Mousavi, who had the potential to challenge the existing power structure on certain key issues. He ran a surprisingly effective campaign, and his “green wave” began to be seen as more than a wave. In fact, many began calling it a Green Revolution. For a regime that has been terrified about the possibility of a “velvet revolution,” this may have been too much.

On the basis of what we know so far, here is the sequence of events starting on the afternoon of election day, Friday, June 12.

* Near closing time of the polls, mobile text messaging was turned off nationwide
* Security forces poured out into the streets in large numbers
* The Ministry of Interior (election headquarters) was surrounded by concrete barriers and armed men
* National television began broadcasting pre-recorded messages calling for everyone to unite behind the winner
* The Mousavi campaign was informed officially that they had won the election, which perhaps served to temporarily lull them into complacency
* But then the Ministry of Interior announced a landslide victory for Ahmadinejad
* Unlike previous elections, there was no breakdown of the vote by province, which would have provided a way of judging its credibility
* The voting patterns announced by the government were identical in all parts of the country, an impossibility (also see the comments of Juan Cole at the title link)
* Less than 24 hours later, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamene`i publicly announced his congratulations to the winner, apparently confirming that the process was complete and irrevocable, contrary to constitutional requirements
* Shortly thereafter, all mobile phones, Facebook, and other social networks were blocked, as well as major foreign news sources.

All of this had the appearance of a well orchestrated strike intended to take its opponents by surprise – the classic definition of a coup. Curiously, this was not a coup of an outside group against the ruling elite; it was a coup of the ruling elite against its own people.

It is still too early for anything like a comprehensive analysis of implications, but here are some initial thoughts:

1. The willingness of the regime simply to ignore reality and fabricate election results without the slightest effort to conceal the fraud represents a historic shift in Iran’s Islamic revolution. All previous leaders at least paid lip service to the voice of the Iranian people. This suggests that Iran’s leaders are aware of the fact that they have lost credibility in the eyes of many (most?) of their countrymen, so they are dispensing with even the pretense of popular legitimacy in favor of raw power.

2. The Iranian opposition, which includes some very powerful individuals and institutions, has an agonizing decision to make. If they are intimidated and silenced by the show of force (as they have been in the past), they will lose all credibility in the future with even their most devoted followers. But if they choose to confront their ruthless colleagues forcefully, not only is it likely to be messy but it could risk running out of control and potentially bring down the entire existing power structure, of which they are participants and beneficiaries.

3. With regard to the United States and the West, nothing would prevent them in principle from dealing with an illegitimate authoritarian government. We do it every day, and have done so for years (the Soviet Union comes to mind). But this election is an extraordinary gift to those who have been most skeptical about President Obama’s plan to conduct negotiations with Iran. Former Bush official Elliott Abrams was quick off the mark, commenting that it is “likely that the engagement strategy has been dealt a very heavy blow.” Two senior Israeli officials quickly urged the world not to engage in negotiations with Iran. Neoconservatives who had already expressed their support for an Ahmadinejad victory now have every reason to be satisfied. Opposition forces, previously on the defensive, now have a perfect opportunity to mount a political attack that will make it even more difficult for President Obama to proceed with his plan.

In their own paranoia and hunger for power, the leaders of Iran have insulted their own fellow revolutionaries who have come to have second thoughts about absolute rule and the costs of repression, and they may have alienated an entire generation of future Iranian leaders. At the same time, they have provided an invaluable gift to their worst enemies abroad.

However this turns out, it is a historic turning point in the 30-year history of Iran’s Islamic revolution. Iranians have never forgotten the external political intervention that thwarted their democratic aspirations in 1953. How will they remember this day?

Emerging reports that the following individuals from Jebhe Mosharekat are among the people who have been rounded up and taken to undisclosed locations: Mohsen Mirdamadi, Zahra Mojaradi, Saeed Shariati, Zahra Aghajari, Abdolah Ramezanzadeh.

Mohammad Reza Khatami, the brother of former president, is said to be among those arrested, although this could not be verified.

Mostafa Tajzadeh and Behzad Nabavi are among those arrested from Sazeman Mojahedin Enghelabi.

Says one Iran watcher: “If the integrity of the election process were defensible, there would be no reason to go berserk like this.”
 
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