Iraq vs Vietnam

[HowardHughes]

Tompeepin...

The UN was suggested with the term "boys in blue".

I lost a friend in 9/11 - did you?

If you want to take that stance about freedom fighters - then I take it that you call 12 year old suicide bombers "heroes"???



"The Shake"...

Are you actually going to have an original thought here, or are you going to simply re-quote others, and change the lyrics to a John Lennon song again?

 

[HowardHughes]

Tompeepin...

So, then when Iraq invaded Iran - who were the freedom fighters in that one?

How about in Bosnia?

And let's be serious here - if Saddam got his hands on nuclear material, do you honestly think he would have complied with anyone in regards to their use?

The guy gassed his own people.

Get a grip on reality.

 

[The Shake]

Are you actually going to have an original thought here, or are you going to simply re-quote others, and change the lyrics to a John Lennon song again?

Its "Country Joe and the Fish", actually.

 

[tompeepin]

Tompeepin...

The UN was suggested with the term "boys in blue".

I lost a friend in 9/11 - did you?

If you want to take that stance about freedom fighters - then I take it that you call 12 year old suicide bombers "heroes"???

Again stay focused! If you want to talk about the "boys in blue" address prof not pool.

You lost a friend. So? What does that have to do with Iraq? Again stay focused. I had a friend, who was murdered, should I bring that into this discussion about Iraq? And also is that friend's life objectively worth more than an innocent Iraqi's anyway?

“12 year old suicide bombers” where? Who said anything about "heroes"?

You really need to put emotion aside and get focused! Seriously!

So, then when Iraq invaded Iran - who were the freedom fighters in that one?

How about in Bosnia?

And let's be serious here - if Saddam got his hands on nuclear material, do you honestly think he would have complied with anyone in regards to their use?

The guy gassed his own people.

Get a grip on reality.

I think that it is you who needs to be less random in your thoughts, and develop one thought at a time so as to link them correctly together. And until you do there is no point in having a thoughtful discussion.

 

[HowardHughes]

Okay Tompeepin...

When you have a friend who is killed by a bunch of terrorists that hide behind the flag of a sponsoring country, we'll compare notes - I'd love to see your stance at that time.

Sadly, it is people like you who would rather debate and debate something until it lands in your lap.

Go climb back up on your ivory tower.

 

[HowardHughes]

Sorry Shake...

You proved me wrong there, I feel so embarassed...no really...

 

[tompeepin]

When you have a friend who is killed by a bunch of terrorists that hide behind the flag of a sponsoring country, we'll compare notes - I'd love to see your stance at that time.

This is all you need to say to reveal your credibility!

 

[HowardHughes]

Whatever turns your crank, tompeepin.

It is evident that you really don't get terrorism.

Again, people like you are probably really dead-set against the death penalty until someone you know gets killed.

Until then all you are full of is ideals and talk.

Best of luck to you.

 

[HowardHughes]

So, al-queda had a country of it's own then?

Hmmmmmm...let's see...Sudan expelled them...then hmmmm...Afghanistan allowed them in...hmmmm...

You sir, are an idiot.

 

[The Shake]

So, al-queda had a country of it's own then?

Hmmmmmm...let's see...Sudan expelled them...then hmmmm...Afghanistan allowed them in...hmmmm...

And that explains Iraq how?

 

[HowardHughes]

Sorry, but until you become in touch with reality, we really can't have this discussion.

Take care "Shake" - and yes, your byline about being a "malignant tool" is only partly right.

 

[The Shake]

Yes. because God forbid you be required to justify the occupation with something more than blood lust and rhetoric!

 

[tompeepin]

You know the funny thing about those who have an underlying anti-American scent to their opinions are that they are founded in ideological right/wrong concepts. Like communism, it sounds good on paper but the one thing that has been left out of the formula is people and human nature.

That in of itself is human nature. Everyone has some sort of worldview and ideology. And right or wrong is relative in reference to that value system.

I object to the "anti-American" label, as if it held that would make a significant number of Americans, anti-American. Where is the logic in that? If you mean anti- "current American Administration" / "neo-con", well yes you may have a point. Again refer to above.

Those fighting are following leaders within Iraq. Leaders who are essentially fighting for their own power once the US leaves.

It has become, and will continue as an Iraqi civil war.

Very true. Human nature alright. So either the power is held by the Americans who appoint a dictator, or there is a power struggle for some other form of dictatorship. We all aspire for "real democracy" in Iraq. However we aspire for it in the west as well.

 

[seven]

Whatever turns your crank, tompeepin.

It is evident that you really don't get terrorism.

Again, people like you are probably really dead-set against the death penalty until someone you know gets killed.

Until then all you are full of is ideals and talk.

Best of luck to you.

I think it is you that doesn't get terrorism. Terrorism is a cycle of violence borne of revenge and hate. You are the perfect example of that. Your friend died in the tragedy of 9/11. You want to avenge the loss of your friend and "pave Iraq" (what Iraq has to do with 9/11 I don't know but hate isn't exactly rational). There were 3000 other innocents that died on 9/11. How much hate did that act of terrorism create in how many people? One can only guess but chances are it created many more people just like you. I bet the terrorist leaders who planned 9/11 thought that it would finally send a message to America to get out of Muslim countries since the only thing the other side respects is "absolute fear <and> that's about it". Sound familiar?

The fact of the matter is that you can never destroy hate (that notion is silly if you think about it – in order to try and destroy hate you have to create more hate through action – in reality, it just makes the hate more deep seated on both sides). So if 9/11 caused that level of emotion and hatred towards the "other side" with the death of 3000 innocent people what would happen if the US "paved Iraq" killing exponentially more innocent people? There are 25 million people in Iraq and over 1 BILLION Muslims worldwide so I'll let you do the math. Besides the obvious of being morally wrong, paving Iraq would be incredibly stupid and only a hawk with a 2 cent brain would ever consider something that idiotic and chaotic.

 

[Cobster]

Will they ever be able to pull out and still claim victory?

pulling out & claiming victory ...

wow, that just doesn't sound right

 

[Drunken Master]

Until then all you are full of is ideals and talk.

What else are we supposed to be full of?

On second thought, don't answer that....

 

[Pallydin]

Re: Tompeepin...

The guy gassed his own people.

Actually, he gassed his enemies who just happened to live within the borders of his current control (and did so with US provided WMD, no less). Saying that the Kurds were Saddam's "own people" is like suggesting Southern US blacks were the "people" of the white KKK rednecks who lynched them while burning crosses (which is equally as ridiculous a notion once you think about it).

PAL

 

[Pallydin]

I lost a friend in 9/11 - did you?

So did I....and I find it abhorrent that his death is being used as a justification to go on a free-wheeling expedition of conquering foreign soil for profit through the blood of innocent Iraqi civilians and loyal soldiers who deserve better deaths than dying to line someone's pocket back home.

9/11 should've been a wake-up call, not a war cry.....but then not everyone has their hearing checked on a regular basis, I guess.

PAL

 

[Pallydin]

At this point though I can't see the US turning to the UN. The US more or less ignored the UN before the war. True, the existing UN directives were still in place from the previous Gulf War, but an invasion on the scale of what happened surely justified further UN approval. This approval was not forthcoming so the US branded the UN as a monolithic institution that had outlived its usefulness. To go back to the UN now would be something of an admission of wrongdoing. I jsut can't see the Bush Administration doing this.

I agree that we'll never see such a display of maturity from the Bush Admin to accept responsibility for screwing things up so badly instead of constantly spinning the truth, but that doesn't change what needs to be done to make things right. Another thing to consider is that Bush will likely only be around until the end of the year so there is still hope for there to *maybe* be some Iraqis left to cheer on that day.

PAL

 

[HowardHughes]

Okay Pallydin...

If the Kurds who were living in Iraq "not his people" - but they were enemies - that gives him the right then to do that? You make the comparison of blacks and the KKK - I mean really - I think if you wish to compare state-sponsored aggression against a group, then let's do that. How about Russian pogroms against Jews? Or better yet, let's compare Hitler liquidating Jews, Poles, Gypsys and politicals within his borders too, because obviously, they too were "enemies" - right?

As for me not understanding state-sponsored terrorism, I'm afraid that you are kind of in the dark. Ever hear of Locherbie, Scotland? Do some reading there - you'll find Libya was behind that. Wait a minute...how could that be? I mean, the Libyian government didn't make an announcement beforehand, did they? Hmmmmm...but Iraq denies any involvement with anything outside it's borders - so, they must be telling the truth afterall.

Also, your comment about waging war against Muslims is plain wrong - I am talking about wiping out insurgents. If someone throws even a rock at a tank - you take them out - period.

You criticize the Bush admin over this - Clinton was equally as useless.

And, this talk about "stopping the cycle of terrorism" is nothing short of a joke - as again, you are up against people that simply don't play by the same rulebook that you dream up on a day to day basis.