Iraq vs Vietnam

[seven]

If the Kurds who were living in Iraq "not his people" - but they were enemies - that gives him the right then to do that?

It seems you can't see past your own hypocrisy. Your views are surprising similar to Saddam Hussein (anything that remotely threatens your way of life - the enemy - needs to be destroyed). Remember what you said about paving Iraq because force is the only thing those people seem to understand? How exactly do you differentiate your views from what Saddam did to the Kurds?

As for me not understanding state-sponsored terrorism, I'm afraid that you are kind of in the dark. Ever hear of Locherbie, Scotland? Do some reading there - you'll find Libya was behind that.

You are whacked dude. I mean seriously whacked. I've heard a lot of bullshit in my time but concluding that since Libya was behind “Locherbie” Scotland that Iraq must therefore be behind Al-Queda and then try and use it as proof is way the fuck out there.

Also, your comment about waging war against Muslims is plain wrong - I am talking about wiping out insurgents. If someone throws even a rock at a tank - you take them out - period.

Can you not see how you could be the guy throwing the rock at the tank? It is all about the individual freedom that every person wants/needs. No group of people want their land and lives controlled and some will fight to the death for liberation against that. Right now the USA is the occupier and iron-fisted ruler and therefore the enemy. You can never crush the spirit of freedom no matter how much force you bring. If you just had a passing knowledge of history you would understand that.

You criticize the Bush admin over this - Clinton was equally as useless.

No, Bush is way worse than Clinton (that's what happens when you give an imbecile power - he loses what little judgment he had). There is no way Clinton would've invaded Iraq for big business contracts destroying the lives and families of many Americans and Iraqis both. Long range, attacking Iraq is extremely damaging to international relations and global peace, and there is no upside for anyone except to make some rich fat cats richer.

And, this talk about "stopping the cycle of terrorism" is nothing short of a joke - as again, you are up against people that simply don't play by the same rulebook that you dream up on a day to day basis.

You're a fool if you think you would react any differently than the average Iraqis if you ever found yourself in the same situation. Actually you've proven otherwise, just in this thread, regarding your beliefs of the use of force to impose your will on others when push comes to shove.

 

[HowardHughes]

Okay...

I think you are really reaching under the rug by trying your hardest to use my own words against me.

I guess I should expect nothing less from a Democrat.

 

[HowardHughes]

And...

If you want to talk about how smart Clinton was, well, who else besides him was impeached by his own house of reps?

Want to go on about who is an imbicile?

Frankly, if Clinton maybe focussed on his job, rather than trying to bang an intern - and then openly lying to investigators, and the public (his voters) - then maybe something could have been done.

At least George Bush has done something that most Democrats shy away from - action.

Right or wrong - he did something about it.

 

[seven]

Re: Okay...

I think you are really reaching under the rug by trying your hardest to use my own words against me.

I didn't have to try very hard... trust me. You gave me more than enough rope. Seriously dude, the path to enlightenment is realizing that the other side isn't really any different than your own side. BTW, pointing out the inconsistencies in your moral logic and reasoning is not "reaching under the rug".

I guess I should expect nothing less from a Democrat.

<and>

If you want to talk about how smart Clinton was, well, who else besides him was impeached by his own house of reps?

<and>

At least George Bush has done something that most Democrats shy away from - action.

You really have to get over your "us versus them" and "me versus you" mentality of judging right and wrong. It has caused your emotion to cloud your intellect so bad that you can't even see the most obvious flaws in your arguments.

PS HH:

Want to go on about who is an imbicile?

The word is "imbecile" and don't you think you have gone on enough?

 

[HowardHughes]

What is really sad seven...

Is that you really don't have an opinion - your responses merely consist of trying to pick apart my stance. Sometimes, we are given a gem of your rhetorical statements, but nothing more.

Again, I really shouldn't be surprised that you support the Democrats.

 

[prof]

"Should we shoot before asking, should we shoot kids with rocks, send missiles into crowed neighbourhoods to pick off a suspected terrorist, bulldozer homes of families related to "terrorists" etc..."

In a word, yes.

If you start that approach, those individuals who shelter a terrorist in their neighbourhood will essentially, turn them in.


There's a difference between sheltering terrorists and having terrorists come into your home and telling you they're going to be using it at gunpoint. What are you gonna do? Call the cops?

The israeli approach will never work unless you go all the way and wipe everyone out. The Indian gov't did pretty well with stamping out the Sikh resistence. They pretty much killed off an entire generation and forced many of them to leave the country (probably to West Coast Canada). They were able to do it without the media attention focusing on the gov't actions.

Not going to happen in Israel nor Iraq. Too much media attention. And I doubt that most people including Americans will not let the U.S. lose the moral highground. But with all the mistakes the U.S. are making in Iraq...is the U.S. facing a no-win situation?

 

[prof]

Re: about the "boys in blue" there, prof...

Now, I could be wrong, but wasn't it the UN that really put a dent in the genocide in Rwanda? I mean, they meant well and all, but what were the losses...2 million?

Or wait a minute, how about how effective they were in the whole ethnic cleansing thing that happened in Bosnia...


Rwanda was a failure of both the U.N. and the U.S. And the same in Bosnia. After Somalia the U.S. became gunshy about losing American soldiers and it didn't help that the REPUBLICANS were on Clinton's back trying to prevent the U.S. in participating in Bosnia.

 

[booboobear]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraq vs Vietnam

Really?

What exactly is my bias? Other than against stupidity, of course.

So then what happens? Do the Iraqi's get to "mow down" Americans in retaliation? Are you really that ignorant?

So you think it is ok to abuse a corpse and drag it in the streets , talk about ignorance. You can't understand my point , well that
doesn't surprise me , you are not very smart are you.

You said the Iraquis are fighting for freedom , I said one dictator wants to replace another is that really hard to understand.
Secondly you obviously live in some sort of dream world and have no idea what war is like.

Maybe if it was your son whose dead body was abused you would feel differently.

It's ok for Iraquis to blow up people with suicide bombers etc but not ok for americans to retaliate , this proves your twisted thinking.
Why don't you go live in Iraq.

 

[tompeepin]

Re: What is really sad seven...

Is that you really don't have an opinion - your responses merely consist of trying to pick apart my stance. Sometimes, we are given a gem of your rhetorical statements, but nothing more.

Again, I really shouldn't be surprised that you support the Democrats.

HH the more you talk the more you are revealing yourself to anyone with common sense. Seven did not formulate his opinion to counter yours. You are too funny dude. The universe does not revolve around you. China should pave your backyard and we will then see how "right" you think that idea would be.

I doubt that Seven supports the Democrats as such. I am sure that if they were in power he would call it as he sees it as well.

But keep talking, you are doing a fine job of discrediting yourself, anyone with a brain can see that. So go ahead ... keep us amused. Well actually it is getting to the point passed amused (for your sake) ... that is what is sad, really!

One starts to understand why the feud between the Campbell and MacDonald clans has lasted so long.

 

[tompeepin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraq vs Vietnam

It's ok for Iraquis to blow up people with suicide bombers etc but not ok for americans to retaliate , this proves your twisted thinking. Why don't you go live in Iraq.

It is ok for the US to retaliate. However, who has invaded whom? Only a dreamer would think that an invaded people would not resist. This is not France. (jk, I couldn't resist) Would Americans sit by if they were invaded? That is the point.

 

[HowardHughes]

Tompeepin...

Yes, and if you were in Scotland for it, you'd likely be decapitated.

Dumba$$.

 

[onthebottom]

I have to openly admit

I don't have the energy to read this entire thread, as it's likely to include some well-worn positions held here. I will say that you can't really compare the two because the scale is completely off (US lost 67K troops in Vietnam) and the war is won (but not the occupation).

I think what we are seeing is a struggle for power, not so much with the US (we've said we can't wait to give up control) but among competing interests (Sunni, Kurd, Shiite). Someone is going to win and someone is going to loose, the US is a safe scapegoat because everyone (except the Kurds) can agree that they don't want a US occupation (I think even the US agrees with that in the medium term).

Flame away.

OTB

 

[HowardHughes]

On the bottom...

No flames here - but I guarantee you that two other tools here will likely spend their day picking apart your statement, and try to draw you into an all-day argument.

 

[seven]

Re: What is really sad seven...

Is that you really don't have an opinion - your responses merely consist of trying to pick apart my stance. Sometimes, we are given a gem of your rhetorical statements, but nothing more.

Again, I really shouldn't be surprised that you support the Democrats.

What's really sad is that you believe only you can be morally right and that other people that hold contrary opinions to yours are insignificant and don't matter. Deep down most people are basically the same or at least have many of the same motivational forces driving them.

I don't know why you are insisting that I am a Democrat or why it should matter to the extent that you seem to think it should. I guess it is easier for you to judge me based on a stereotype you hold than to actually analyze the merits/content of what I have to say. Stereotypes are often bad, because by their very definition, they are preconceived ideas and perceptions of how you think it should be instead of how it is in reality. The pertinent information that you overlook b/c of your stereotypes is the very information which allows you to assess any given situation accurately, reasonably and objectively. Perhaps you should try to understand the other side instead of just lumping everyone together into one of your many (wrongly-held) stereotypes. That way you wouldn't be so inclined to make idiotic statements like America should just pave Iraq or that the only thing “those people” understand is force.

Now to defend against your accusation and to answer your question, I believe that since GB has put the USA in the unenviable position of occupier the only reasonable solution to this problem is to hand over total control to the UN, and then dump huge amounts of money into Iraq to help set up a viable economic infrastructure and democratic rule of government. It might not work for Iraq but then at least the USA won't be seen as the enemy. Also, the USA on a global scale should withdraw from all Muslim countries and withhold all financial contributions to Israel. The USA wants to be seen as neutral if they ever want to broker a deal for peace sometime in the future and under competent leadership. That, IMO, would be the best solution for the USA in order to try and extricate themselves from the mess they have helped contribute towards in the Middle East and to calm down the level of anger and hostility directed at them through terrorist actions.

 

[booboobear]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraq vs Vietnam

It is ok for the US to retaliate. However, who has invaded whom? Only a dreamer would think that an invaded people would not resist. This is not France. (jk, I couldn't resist) Would Americans sit by if they were invaded? That is the point.

I will agree with you . Like I said before I was totally against the americans going to Iraq in the first place. Supposedly Saddam was evil and tortured and killed innocent people but I don't think that gives america the right to invade under false pretences.
At first some Iraquis were supposedly happy that Saddam was removed.
Were Americans supposed to risk their lives to help out Iraquis then leave . No.

In my opinion Americans should leave these countries to their own misery and ruthless dictators.
Terrorists have there own agenda however, it's about personal power.
An army once it is there should however defend there living and dead with equal force.

 

[tompeepin]

Re: On the bottom...

No flames here - but I guarantee you that two other tools here will likely spend their day picking apart your statement, and try to draw you into an all-day argument.

Don't worry about OTB. Even if OTB often takes an opposing position to mine, mostly he uses reason to discuss his position, unlike you. Often enough he make quite a bit of sense, relative to his worldview.

 

[HowardHughes]

okay seven...

I liked your last paragraph. Your view is different from mine, but you do have a viewpoint!

To each their own!

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: On the bottom...

Don't worry about OTB. Even if OTB often takes an opposing position to mine, mostly he uses reason to discuss his position, unlike you. Often enough he make quite a bit of sense, relative to his worldview.

"relative to his worldview"? I guess we all view current events through the lens of our current situation. I noticed that my father, for instance, changed as he moved from the earnings and wealth generation part of his life to the retired playing with my kids part of his life. I guess your worldview can change as you mature and your situations changes. I have to say that I feel I'm doing "battle" on this board with many posters who are not burdened by a mortgage, kids they need to support, a career they are tying to manage, and thus their worldview is a bit simplistic and idealistic. But perhaps that's just self-serving.

I will defend my "relative worldview" in that I've lived and traveled extensively overseas and have friends from many ethnic, cultural, religions, and sexual preference background. Unlike most Americans I've had to have extra pages put into my passport, I get around.

I do try to avoid the flames and deal with analysis and facts, when I can.

OTB

PS. this is almost as disturbing as *d* agreeing with me.... LOL

 

[tompeepin]

Re: Re: Re: On the bottom...

I have to say that I feel I'm doing "battle" on this board with many posters who are not burdened by a mortgage, kids they need to support, a career they are tying to manage, and thus their worldview is a bit simplistic and idealistic. But perhaps that's just self-serving.

Well I guess if I was starving or underprivileged I would be entirely self-centered and struggling for every inch along the way as well. Civility exists for the most part from the satiated (those who have a surplus) that do not have to struggle and can magnanimously concede that which they do not desperately need; or for those who are not down right greedy.

U2 - The Hands That Built America Lyrics

It’s a long way we’ve come
From the freckled hills to the steel and glass canyons
From the stony fields, to hanging steel from the sky
From digging in our pockets, for a reason not to say goodbye

These are the hands, that build America.

You gotta live with your dreams
Don't make them so hard

 

[The Shake]

Re: Re: Re: Re: On the bottom...

U2 - The Hands That Built America Lyrics

It’s a long way we’ve come
From the freckled hills to the steel and glass canyons
From the stony fields, to hanging steel from the sky
From digging in our pockets, for a reason not to say goodbye

These are the hands, that build America.

You gotta live with your dreams
Don't make them so hard

Careful, Tom. HH gets rattled when you quote song lyrics.