Israel announces a unilateral cease fire

[nottyboi]

The whole of what you would call Arab lands used to have a mixed population of Arab Jews and Arab Muslims. Arab Muslims allied themselves with the Nazis and began pogroms and ethnic cleansing of Jews in the 1930's and 1940's but especially in the 1950's.

Most of the Jews in Israel are ethnically Arab who, as Arabs, are indigenous to Arab lands just as any other Arab is--but who fled from Muslim Arab persecution to the one tiny little bit of Arab territory where they can live in peace.

Most Jews in Israel are as Arab as the Muslims who are trying to kill them.

As for what I mean by "area", I mean the areas populated primarily by Arabs, which used to include both Jewish Arabs and Muslim Arabs. You'll note that the modern borders that exist there now are completely arbitrary and meaningless: The whole place used to be the Ottoman Empire.

Some parts of that area are now Syria, some are Jordan, some are Israel, some are Iraq, etc., but those bordes are all modern inventions without any significant historic basis and most Jews in Israel are indigenous to that oveall area.

Ok well then SO WHAT? 2/3 may have been indigenous to the area, but there were FAR more Arabs living on that land. These were ethically cleansed and repopulated with Jews. The land that is being hit by rockets is Palestinian land as per the UN charter that created Israel, yes the exact same one that Israel loves to quote when it is favorable, but promptly ignores when it is not.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

And what area is that nottiboi? Do you have a link that backs and shows that?

 

[fuji]

Ok well then SO WHAT? 2/3 may have been indigenous to the area, but there were FAR more Arabs living on that land.

You are flat out wrong. There were were more Jewish Arab refugees than Muslim Arab refugees in the aftermath of the 1948 conflict.

These were ethically cleansed and repopulated with Jews. The land that is being hit by rockets is Palestinian land

Note that many of those Jews are Palestinians as well and most of them are also Arabs. Many of them were evicted from, for example, homes in the West Bank from which the PLO ethnically cleansed them.

The 800,000 Jews who fled Arab ethnic cleansing left behind real estate larger in square km's than the entire size of the current state of Israel. Jews LOST land to the Arabs in the aftermath of 1948.

Prior to 1948 Jews lived all over Palestine and throughout Arab lands in the Middle East. In the aftermath of 1948 they were forced to flee from 90% of Palestine and forced to flee from pretty much every other Arab territory.

Maybe once you realize this you will change your tune, what you believe is widely believed by many people, but it is a direct product of Palestinian/PLO propaganda and PR, it is simply untrue. There were more Jewish than Muslim refugees and they lost more land. Period.

 

[nottyboi]

You are flat out wrong. There were were more Jewish Arab refugees than Muslim Arab refugees in the aftermath of the 1948 conflict.



Note that many of those Jews are Palestinians as well and most of them are also Arabs. Many of them were evicted from, for example, homes in the West Bank from which the PLO ethnically cleansed them.

The 800,000 Jews who fled Arab ethnic cleansing left behind real estate larger in square km's than the entire size of the current state of Israel. Jews LOST land to the Arabs in the aftermath of 1948.

Prior to 1948 Jews lived all over Palestine and throughout Arab lands in the Middle East. In the aftermath of 1948 they were forced to flee from 90% of Palestine and forced to flee from pretty much every other Arab territory.

Maybe once you realize this you will change your tune, what you believe is widely believed by many people, but it is a direct product of Palestinian/PLO propaganda and PR, it is simply untrue. There were more Jewish than Muslim refugees and they lost more land. Period.

If the Jews are Palestinians, then the Palestinians are Israeli's, (which Israel refuses to acknowledge). The number of Jews who lost property does not remotely come close to the entire area of Israel that was ceded to the Jewish state by the UN. So please stop your self-serving nonsense. PLO propaganda? I'm sure there is some, but I was not aware of any massive presence of Arab control of the western media lol .

 

[fuji]

If the Jews are Palestinians, then the Palestinians are Israeli's, (which Israel refuses to acknowledge).

Anyone who talks about a right of return for only one half of the refugees is a bigot. There were migrations in TWO directions in 1948: Jews fleeing in one direction, muslim Arabs fleeing in the other direction.

The solution proposed by the PLO, etc., of resettling the Arabs who fled but doing _nothing_ for the Jews who fled in the opposite direction is patently unfair and bigoted. It is a transparent attempt to destroy the Israeli state.

If it were possible for Jews to live in Arab lands without any persecution then in theory we could talk about returning Jews to the areas they lost, and Palestinian muslims to the areas they lost.

Since it's entirely unrealistic to contemplate Jews returning to Arab countries to any sort of free or unpersecuted life---

Well face reality: 1948 happened, there was a partition, and people fled in both directions. It's done and over with.

There SHOULD be compensation but if the Arab muslim nations are unwilling to discuss it, it's impossible for Israel to:
A reasonable compensation would be to take the land that Jews lost in Arab territories and give it to the Palestinians.

However we all know that Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., are not going to give any land to the Palestinians beceause unlike the Israelis who resettled their refugees those countries don't give a damn about the Palestinians other than in using them as a pawn in a fight with Israel.

The number of Jews who lost property does not remotely come close to the entire area of Israel that was ceded to the Jewish state by the UN.

In point of fact it does. There were 800,000 Jews who lost territory in Arab lands, versus 711,000 Palestinian muslims. The Jews by and large were wealthier and held much more real estate, hotels in Egypt, etc., and their total loss in the troubles if you add up all the property is more square km's than the entire current state of Israel.

Really.

If you think about it of course it makes sense: 800,000 Jews traded placed with 711,000 muslim Arabs. Of course 800 is bigger than 711 and they had more land to lose.

So please stop your self-serving nonsense. PLO propaganda? I'm sure there is some, but I was not aware of any massive presence of Arab control of the western media lol .

Plainly their propaganda machine has been quite effective because they had you believing there were no Jewish refugees and that only Palestinian muslims lost land. I mean, in point of fact you had a distorted understanding of the situation. How did that happen?

 

[nottyboi]

Anyone who talks about a right of return for only one half of the refugees is a bigot. There were migrations in TWO directions in 1948: Jews fleeing in one direction, muslim Arabs fleeing in the other direction.

The solution proposed by the PLO, etc., of resettling the Arabs who fled but doing _nothing_ for the Jews who fled in the opposite direction is patently unfair and bigoted. It is a transparent attempt to destroy the Israeli state.

If it were possible for Jews to live in Arab lands without any persecution then in theory we could talk about returning Jews to the areas they lost, and Palestinian muslims to the areas they lost.

Since it's entirely unrealistic to contemplate Jews returning to Arab countries to any sort of free or unpersecuted life---

Well face reality: 1948 happened, there was a partition, and people fled in both directions. It's done and over with.

There SHOULD be compensation but if the Arab muslim nations are unwilling to discuss it, it's impossible for Israel to:
A reasonable compensation would be to take the land that Jews lost in Arab territories and give it to the Palestinians.

However we all know that Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., are not going to give any land to the Palestinians beceause unlike the Israelis who resettled their refugees those countries don't give a damn about the Palestinians other than in using them as a pawn in a fight with Israel.




In point of fact it does. There were 800,000 Jews who lost territory in Arab lands, versus 711,000 Palestinian muslims. The Jews by and large were wealthier and held much more real estate, hotels in Egypt, etc., and their total loss in the troubles if you add up all the property is more square km's than the entire current state of Israel.

Really.

If you think about it of course it makes sense: 800,000 Jews traded placed with 711,000 muslim Arabs. Of course 800 is bigger than 711 and they had more land to lose.



Plainly their propaganda machine has been quite effective because they had you believing there were no Jewish refugees and that only Palestinian muslims lost land. I mean, in point of fact you had a distorted understanding of the situation. How did that happen?

There are so many offsetting facts, the Jews were resettled in Israel, and given compensation from the state and from Germany, AND vast sums of money from the US. Many of the Arabs were farmers, so the lands they held were quite large. In the end, I can't really believe anything the Israelis say because there are millions of Arabs jammed into Gaza and the West Bank, while the settlements and occupied areas are much less densely populated.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

In the end, I can't really believe anything the Israelis say

Could be true, but I don't believe anything the Palestinians say either.

 

[fuji]

There are so many offsetting facts, the Jews were resettled in Israel, and given compensation from the state and from Germany, AND vast sums of money from the US. Many of the Arabs were farmers, so the lands they held were quite large. In the end, I can't really believe anything the Israelis say because there are millions of Arabs jammed into Gaza and the West Bank, while the settlements and occupied areas are much less densely populated.

The Jewish population numbers come from official Arab government sources. It is not the Israelis who say that Arab states ethnically cleansed 800,000 Jews it is Arab states that provide that number--the Israelis think it was higher!

The Palestinian muslims have also been compensated to the tune of $500mil/year every year since 1948 so if you want to talk about compensation from other countries I think they've by now had their share! The money poured into UNRWA by now must be worth more than the land they lost.

Also the only reason why there are so many Palestinian muslim "refugees" is because of the truly bizarre practice of counting someone as a refugee even though they are a natural born citizen of the country they were born in for no better reason than one of their ancestors was a refugee.

UNRWA is the _only_ refugee organization in the world that does not--the UN does not do that for any other refugee population, for everybody else in the world you are only a refugee if you actually fled the territory yourself. Children of refugees in Canada, for example, are not considered refugees but instead natural born Canadian citizens.

As for densities there were only 711,000 Palestinian muslim refugees back in 1948, the overcrowding in Gaza is population growth since then. There were 800,000 Jewish refugees who now have grown to represent 3mil of Israel's population--and they live all over Israel, not just in the settlement areas.

Also note that the 800k Arab Jews who fled to Israel were predominately farmes as well, which is exactly why the amount of land they lost was so large. Israel is only 22k square kilometers when you divide that number by 800,000 people it's not hard to see that it's plausible that 800k farmers (mostly) lost more land than that.

In fact the estimate is they lost FOUR TIMES more land than the entire size of the state of Israel...

 

[fuji]

nottyboi I sense at this point that you've realized you might have up until now heard a very distorted story and as a result at some level you may now be questioning what you think about the situation.

I invite you to go do your own background research on the net on the Jewish exodus from Arab lands.

Once you understand what happened your view of the situation might be different than now. Don't take my word for it--go do your own research!

 

[chiller_boy]

It means that it was near inevitable that Israel would announce a cease fire before Obama was sworn in, not because he helped bring about any deal but because the Israelis don't really know what his policy will be and are trying to play it safe.

I agree. The timing of the whole aggression is about Obama. They really were not having a problem of any substance with the Hamas rockets but they needed to get in and show some cojones before Obama got in. Now they will try and appear as reasonable people during the OBama period.

 

[The Prince]

Scary Thread

As we all know opinions are like you know what and most of them smell so lets stick to unbiased facts. It may require some level of intelligence and reason so those lacking are excused.
Hamas ia a terrorist organization who targets innocent civilians without knowledge of their identities or political or religious beliefs or affiliations.
Hamas hides and conceals itself amongst it's own innocent people and even families in a attempt to thwart retaliation from terrorist activities, to sway media and State opinion towards them and against their enemies, mainly Israel.
Hamas bases operations in the basements of schools and mosques for the same reason.
Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel and hides amongst innocent children and civilians.
Israel's actions to date have been retalitory and not agressive.
There is no dis proportionate response to the deliberate killing and targeting of innocent civilians of any land and any land in the free world should be able to defend itself from such attacks by whatever means available.
Two, or should I say 2 based on this thread, some of you will get that later, questions come to mind.
First, if rockets were fired into Canada killing even one child or your family member would any response be dis proportionate?
Second, who is really responsible for the killing of civilians in Gaza? Is it Israel for attempting to protect and defend it's citizens, or Hamas who fires rockets and hides amongst innocent women and children.
In closing I remind you we are ALL brothers even if we are too stupid to remember it most of the time.

 

[landscaper]

you are trying to bring reason to an area that will not have it, the concept of Isreali defence is anathema to a number of the posters here, I do however support your attempt

 

[slowandeasy]

Remove the reason for Hamas to attack and there will be no reason for Israel to defend itself

I guess you are correct...

Remove the reason for Hamas attack means removing Israel and all the Jews in the ME. So there is no reason for Hamas to attack..

If we had to choose who to remove, I think that most of us will choose Hamas. Unfortunately, the people in Gaza seem to back Hamas. Whether they are pressured to support Hamas or they are really that brainwashed, the problem is theirs to solve. If they continue to attack Israel, then they should deal with the ramifications..

 

[The Prince]

Never

There is NEVER a reason to attack and target innocent civilians for any cause, NEVER a reason to target woman and children for any cause or belief. There is no excuse or justification for it.

 

[slowandeasy]

There is NEVER a reason to attack and target innocent civilians for any cause, NEVER a reason to target woman and children for any cause or belief. There is no excuse or justification for it.

But according to you
Second, who is really responsible for the killing of civilians in Gaza? Is it Israel for attempting to protect and defend it's citizens, or Hamas who fires rockets and hides amongst innocent women and children.

The above seems to justify Israels killing of civilians and children in this most recent attack... The IDF knew that there was a very very very good chance of killing civilians when it launches missiles at residential targets...

 

[Aardvark154]

But according to you
Second, who is really responsible for the killing of civilians in Gaza? Is it Israel for attempting to protect and defend it's citizens, or Hamas who fires rockets and hides amongst innocent women and children.

The above seems to justify Israels killing of civilians and children in this most recent attack... The IDF knew that there was a very very very good chance of killing civilians when it launches missiles at residential targets...

So are you saying that if I (a terrorist) hide out in a hospital and fire rockets at your population centers and shoot at you when you fly over and come near - that you should do nothing merely because I've taken over a hospital?

 

[Rockslinger]

So are you saying that if I (a terrorist) hide out in a hospital and fire rockets at your population centers and shoot at you when you fly over and come near - that you should do nothing merely because I've taken over a hospital?

Yes, do nothing. Let the terrorist kill you (and your wife and your kids). You must be held to a higher moral standard so it's ok for you and your family to be killed. Just kidding! You must do what you have to do to protect ypur family.

 

[slowandeasy]

So are you saying that if I (a terrorist) hide out in a hospital and fire rockets at your population centers and shoot at you when you fly over and come near - that you should do nothing merely because I've taken over a hospital?

Good one...

Lets say that in the past year, you (the terrorist) managed to kill one person, injure 2 or 3 more and do a good deal of property damage.

Let's say that the hospital is a fully functioning hospital with 300 patients and another 100 staff.

Let's say that you (the terrorist) is allowed to use the hospital because the government in the area allows you to do this.

Let's say that I am the good guy in this scenario... I am faced with a dilemna.
1. Should I drop a 1000lb bomb and flatten the hospital, one terrorist, some
rockets, and 400 civilians?
2. Find another solution???

Which one would the good guy choose???? Which one would you choose???

 

[slowandeasy]

Common sense would indicate for an organisation with no army or modern weaponry attacking the the most sophisticated army in the world means it can never win such a conflict. The reason for Hamas existence is the illegal occupation and apartheid policies of Israel .

The thing about common sense is that it has never been common... As a matter of fact I propose that we change it from common sense to uncommon sense...

The reason for Hamas existence is as a tool for the Arab world to continue to
oppose the creation of Israel. It is also a mechanism for its leaders to fill their pockets and take advantage of their own people. Their sole reason for existence right now is that their leaders get off on the power and money they have...

Please explain the illegal occupation???

My personal belief is that the creation of Israel was a good idea, but terrible implementation.

 

[*d*]

First that's not from the GC that's from the Statute of Rome, which has no jurisdiction over Israel in any case. Even if it did you are reading into that the word "proportionality" which simply does not exist in that text. It says that "excessive force" should not be used.

It does not appear that IDF has used excessive foce, IDF used the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the rocket attacks.

Sorry on the mix up. I did mean ICC, and that text is well known as the 'principle of proportionality' within humanitarian law by countless international court studies. And your opinion that excessive force was not used by Israel is only your opinion and not those of nearly every major human rights group. Their suspicions of Israel's war crimes could be referred by the UNSC to the ICC for investigation. But as I said earlier, it most likely will never happen. The UNSC will never give the ICC jurisdiction over Israel because of the US's veto power. And to think Israel wouldn't ratify the ICC because of its fear of possible unfair judgements against them due to political bias. But I'm sure they're quite happy when its political bias that works in their favour.

The Statute of Rome does not have any force or effect in Israel so while I'm sure that these events are going to be investigated I imagine it'll be against some international law that does apply and not the Statute of Rome.

I agree it's worth investigating. It's worth investigating even when there is absolutely no indication that there was any war crime--just because civilian lives are important, and such investigations ensure that the rules are always followed.

There's also 'customary international humanitarian law' that the ICRC calls on often.
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine-news-311208?opendocument
They refer to 'proportionality' there as well when commenting on international laws that Israel may not be fully adhering to.
"Proportionality: 'Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited.' Customary International Humanitarian Law, Volume I, Rule 14, Page 46, Cambridge University Press, 2005."