Justin Trudeau was bad, but Mark Carney will be far worse

[Skoob]

Might have affected the outcome ... if Poilievre wasn't the alternative.

Trump wants a North American true free trade zone against what he sees as a declining EU and a threat from China.

Carney is open to some version of that.

Poilievre is much more of a socialist EU trade barrier guy at heart who wants the same old monopolies to rule Canada as long as they are owned by Canadians.

Forget the slogans, he's a John A McDonald conservative, not a Mulroney or Paul Martin business type.

So yeah, they want to at least talk to Carney and see if there is something to be done

Trump is an idiot but the real thinkers behind him are not ... the guys you don't see on TV

They believe Canada is essential to the US rivalry with China ... but Trump being Trump has alienated everyone who agrees the world needs an alternative to China.

So nobody knows what will happen.

Poilievre didn't waiver on his platform for years. His popularity kept going up. So he was indeed the alternative until Trump decided to favour Carney.
Trump prefers Carney because Carney is more prone to give him what he wants.
Which is the complete opposite of why people voted for him and they don't even know it.

 

[Skoob]

No.

Harper cut the GST well before the financial crisis and crippled the surplus immediately.

The 2008 financial crisis happened much later.

Trudeau, like Harper, squandered money on things with no productive value.

Both failures

The Liberals had promised to get rid of the GST but lied and they didn't.
Harper reduced it so it was more realistic and acceptable to people.

He cut it in mid-2006...financial crisis started in mid-2007...too short of a runway for that to hold any significance.
Still, can you name a country that did better during the crisis than Canada?

Have you compared the mount of debt harper left vs Trudeau?

With the assumption that no one is close to being perfect, I would say harper did better for Canada than Trudeau did.

 

[Frankfooter]

Good question - having actual face to face conversations is the only way - to break down stereotypes and understand another point of view.

There is an organization in the US which seeks to get both Democrats and Republicans to talk to each other, it is actually working.
The same can work here in Canada. Here is a link to their Website:

Braver Angels

I get really pissed off when Radio Hosts go on about Doug Ford or PP and his "far right" supporters, who maybe just want accountability and fiscal responsibility and sustainable social programs.

Radio Hosts or CBC new anchors should just play music and talk, not get outside their lane, or be actual journalists and report the news from both perspectives.
Today's so called journalists know practically zero about economics, while complaining that social programs are under threat, so voting Liberal or NDP is seen as the only viable option, which is mind blowing, when the exact opposite is true.
As a taxpayer, as we all are, I am painfully aware of the waste and over taxation of the population.
Even at the local level Toronto is full of people that literally sit and do nothing. This has been reported and discovered with GPS tracking, which was halted due to privacy concerns.
Social programs are critical, but without a strong, growing tax base, that is all under threat. It pains me that we as a country spend far more on debt interest than on Health Care Transfer Payments, while complaining that DOFO is an evil man and somehow his crazy plans for the 401 tunnel or the SPA are soley responsible for long lines at the emergency, or no family doctors. That is completely misleading.
The problem goes much deeper.
No sane person runs a household and keeps increasing their debt payments every year on borrowed money, while running out of money to pay for groceries.

Social programs are critical, but Ford has been cutting them and not in a 'sustainable' way. Take health care, he's driving family doctors out through low fees and opening the doors for private clinics to replace them, even though they will cost the province more.

Really, the big issue is the change in progressive taxation since neo liberalism and the Reagan/Thatcher austerity programs. Since then its been a large move to offload taxes from the rich to the lower and middle class through income and sales tax changes. That's what you need to change if you want sustainable social programs.

 

[JohnLarue]

Then Harper fucked us.

Rather than keeping the GST exactly where it was and continuing to run surpluses while paying down debt, he cut the tax the economy could easily sustain and squandered the income tax yields that worked on ... tax credits for soccer moms and othera who might vote for him.

He had every chance to be an actual conservative and finish what Chretien started and instead, he fucked the nation long before there was any financial crisis.

that is pure garbage
Harper managed the governments finances responsibly and the country was more united than at any time in the past 50 years
he was delt a shit hand with the financial crisis , borrowed when had to , crafted a plan to get back to balance and executed that plan
Harper signed multiple trade deals that Canadian businesses did not exploit

the most important responsibilities of a PM as per Jean Chretien
1, Hold the country together
2. Maintain the economic relationship with the US

Harper fulfilled those responsibilities


then along came the spoiled child Justin who still does not understand the responsibilities of the Prime ministers office
and Justin Trudeau made a god damn mess of everything he touched

That he gets a pass for this from you and other fake conservatives is a joke.

Trudeau said deficits didn't matter and proceeded to prove it, wasting tax dollars on reinflating the bureaucracy.

So the two of them, Harper and Trudeau, wrecked our government capacity long before excuses like 2008 and Covid appeared.

you have not been paying attention if you equate Steven Harper to Justin Trudeau
their governments were polar opposites and Harpers worked

 

[JohnLarue]

You do realize that all he had to do was keep the formula he inherited on both the GST and income taxes ... and we would have crushed the debt by the time he was gone?

So the 2008 Financial Crisis just did not occur according to you?
it was in all the news headlines

And I'm not comparing Trudeau to Harper ... or engaging in bullshit relativism.

Harper inherited a much better economic hand from the combo of Mulroney-Chretien-Martin than any other G7 country. So relativism is a joke.

He fucked it up. Plain and simple.

For NOTHING.

more nonsense from you
your premise is just factually not true

Harper ran surpluses up until the Financial crisis
and then it was appropriate to borrow

and you seem oblivious to the fact he borrowed , he had a plan to get back to balance and executed that plan- a very responsible and capable manager

Justin irresponsibly borrowed because .... it was 2015 .... and because credit was available
Justin irresponsibly borrowed more than all previous Prime Minsters combined
And we have sweet F All to show for his mountain of debt. a mountain of debt that is going to haunt this country for generations to come
a very irresponsible and totally incapable manager

the most important responsibilities of a PM as per Jean Chretien
1, Hold the country together
2. Maintain the economic relationship with the US

after a decade of Trudeau, Canada is more divided than ever
we are in a economically crippling trade war with our most important trading partner,

 

[JohnLarue]

So now Carney will be responsible for his own decisions and we'll see if he's Chretien/Mulroney .... or Harper/Trudeau.

Poilievre is done. We will see if someone more electable parachutes in to save the Conservatives after Carney is given a honeymoon period to sink or swim.

you should be far more concerned about Carney's future
he was elected on expectations of standing up to Trump

if Carney can get the tariffs lifted within a short time , he will survive ... for a while
if he truly wants to drive economic growth, he will need to back off the net zero agenda, repeal Bill C-69 and walk back his industrial carbon tax and his planned carbon import tariffs
The planned Carbon import tariffs are a real head scratcher - completely incompatible with any trade relationship with the US


if he does not do all of these things Canada is recession bound for sure & minority govts do not survive nasty recessions

Poilievre is done.

you have not seen the last of Pierre Poilievre

 

[JohnLarue]

Trumps people do favour Carney over Poilievre, which is a story the media missed.

But not for the reasons you think. We can discuss that another time.

how about you enlighten us now ?

 

[JohnLarue]

Harper inherited a much better economic hand from the combo of Mulroney-Chretien-Martin than any other G7 country. So relativism is a joke.

you seem oblivious the fact that Chretien-Martin were part of the Trudeau Senior govt that also created a nightmare pile of debt

Credit due were credit is deserved
Mulroney took the political hit for implementing the GST which was the cash cow which enabled Chretien-Martin to pay down much of Trudeau Senior monstrous debt
and Chretien-Martin did pay down much of that debt

 

[WyattEarp]

You don't really know much about Canada or you're just young.

Chretien and his finance minister Paul Martin crushed the federal deficit and slimmed the bloated federal bureaucracy.

The country was in SURPLUS and the central question being debated was how long it would take to get Canada out of debt, not deficit.

Nobody had a better fiscal record ... built in part of Mulroney wrestling down inflation and bringing in the GST.

Then Harper fucked us.

Rather than keeping the GST exactly where it was and continuing to run surpluses while paying down debt, he cut the tax the economy could easily sustain and squandered the income tax yields that worked on ... tax credits for soccer moms and othera who might vote for him.

He had every chance to be an actual conservative and finish what Chretien started and instead, he fucked the nation long before there was any financial crisis.

That he gets a pass for this from you and other fake conservatives is a joke.

Trudeau said deficits didn't matter and proceeded to prove it, wasting tax dollars on reinflating the bureaucracy.

So the two of them, Harper and Trudeau, wrecked our government capacity long before excuses like 2008 and Covid appeared.

Deficits are only one metric. Growth, business investment and productivity are certainly important metrics if not more important. I think you are going out of your way to try to pull Harper into this economic argument. People can choose to ignore the last ten years or perhaps try to equate them with Harper, but the Canadian economy began a period of acute stagnation.

Over the last ten years, oil prices have been significantly higher than 2014-2015. It should have been wind at the back of the Canadian economy.

Low business investment is the culprit behind slow growth and low productivity growth. It's extremely unlikely that lowering the GST and fiscal deficits were behind anemic business investment. Lagging Canadian business investment relative to GDP appears started to be noticeable in 2000 and has amplified over the last twenty-five years.

Note: This is Google AI's summary of the importance of productivity:
While not the most important in isolation, productivity is a crucial economic number and a key driver of long-term economic growth and improved living standards. It's a measure of how efficiently resources are used to produce goods and services. While other factors like GDP and inflation also matter, productivity growth is often seen as the most consequential long-term factor influencing economic well-being

 

[Frankfooter]

So the 2008 Financial Crisis just did not occur according to you?
it was in all the news headlines

Harper put in banking de-regularizing that made the 2008 recession worse, though we still had enough leftover from Paul Martin to do better than the US.
Conservatives made it worse, liberals made it better.