Ontario man faces charges after allegedly assaulting home intruder: police

[Phil C. McNasty]

If someone is on meth punches are equivalent to mosquito bites

Case in point. In 2020 a professional UFC fighter named Anthony Smith (who went 5 rounds with Jon Jones once) had his home burglarized.

Smith is one of the toughest fighters on the planet and weighs 205 lbs. The home invader weighed only 170 lbs, but was strung out on drugs.
Smith couldnt believe how strong the burglar was, and how it took every single punch he had to put him down.

He called it "one the toughest fight he ever had".

Fun read: https://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id...s-home-intruder-man-charged-criminal-trespass

 

[rlnga]

Case in point. In 2020 a professional UFC fighter named Anthony Smith (who went 5 rounds with Jon Jones once) had his home burglarized.

Smith is one of the toughest fighters on the planet and weighs 205 lbs. The home invader weighed only 170 lbs, but was strung out on drugs.
Smith couldnt believe how strong the burglar was, and how it took every single punch he had to put him down.

He called it "one the toughest fight he ever had".

Fun read: https://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id...s-home-intruder-man-charged-criminal-trespass

I believe the perpetrator was a D1 wrestler as well.

 

[Jenesis]

"HEY YOU! GET THE HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE!

You can laugh all you want. I was just stating the law. Some criminals you can scare out if the house just by yelling and if that is all it takes, that is all you are allowed to do. Period.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

I believe the perpetrator was a D1 wrestler as well

On meth he was probably an A1 wrestler

 

[Jenesis]

Honestly I'm not sure how I would react either. Especially if I had family in the house or if the perp came at me. I tend to be cool headed in a crisis but have popped off on occasion when I felt threatened or was in a situation where someone's negligence could have harmed me.

Never with overt violence(a few shoves, I have put a few up against the wall to make a point) but pretty close a few times. Point being I did stop.

I hear you. I have been in that situation and sadly as a woman against a man, I lost. It is not a good place to be. If I was a man going against a man with some equal power, how far would I go? I don't know. Adrenaline gets in you and thinking goes out the window most times. At least I would think.

The key is stopping yourself as soon as you see you have gained the upper hand. So when the adrenaline switches to anger is the point you stop.

 

[Jenesis]

Well I hope you never have to find out if yelling works but if you do please report back with your results.

We have all seen video clips things like this. So yes. It can happen. I’m not saying it works all the time or half the time or a quarter of the time; I’m saying if you start yelling, which is the first thing most do as they are getting into fight mode, and the guy turns arounds and runs - you can’t chase him down and get a few shots in. You can chase him down and hold him there but you can’t hit him.

And if he hits you while you are holding him and then you hit him, you will still legally be found in the wrong. Because you went after him and at that point, he is considered defending himself.

I am not saying I agree with it. I’m just telling you guys what the law is. You need to take it up with the powers that be if you want that changed. You won’t, you will just bitch and moan on a review board but that is the way the law works in these situations. So you can get mad at the facts but not at me for pointing them out.

Oh and it my case, yelling didn’t work. The cowards partner hit me in the back of the head and continued to hit me once I went down. So I’m not activating yelling. Again, I’m just stating the law.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

I absolutely believe in the right of self defense, and to protect your home.

But I'm going to wait a bit and see if details are released. If the homeowner, after the guy gave up, or was down, went and got a weapon AFTER to continue the beat down then he went too far.

Details matter I think here.

Exactly this.

I am reminded of the case in Peterborough last year where a clerk at a corner store was charged with aggravated assault after he was held up by a guy with a baseball bat.

The two had a struggle and the perp dropped his bat --- and as soon as he was unarmed, the perp turned and ran outside into the street, but the clerk chased after him and gave him a severe beating.

I totally understand that adrenaline is pumping in situations like this, but it's not self-defence when you chase after someone who is no longer a threat and beat them up.

While I don't disagree, it is also very hard for someone in a stressful situation to be "reasonable".
The only exception being chasing and beating down someone who is fleeing - which I think should be unacceptable.
Otherwise if you break into a house, I think the home owner should be justified in using excessive force, to immediately stop the threat, whether or not the intruder is armed.
Any hesitation could possibly turn the tables really quickly and in that moment the home owner cannot take that chance.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Case in point. In 2020 a professional UFC fighter named Anthony Smith (who went 5 rounds with Jon Jones once) had his home burglarized.

Smith is one of the toughest fighters on the planet and weighs 205 lbs. The home invader weighed only 170 lbs, but was strung out on drugs.
Smith couldnt believe how strong the burglar was, and how it took every single punch he had to put him down.

He called it "one the toughest fight he ever had".

Fun read: https://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id...s-home-intruder-man-charged-criminal-trespass

Especially if they are on PCP, they get super aggressive.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

We have all seen video clips things like this. So yes. It can happen. I’m not saying it works all the time or half the time or a quarter of the time; I’m saying if you start yelling, which is the first thing most do as they are getting into fight mode, and the guy turns arounds and runs - you can’t chase him down and get a few shots in. You can chase him down and hold him there but you can’t hit him.

And if he hits you while you are holding him and then you hit him, you will still legally be found in the wrong. Because you went after him and at that point, he is considered defending himself.

I am not saying I agree with it. I’m just telling you guys what the law is. You need to take it up with the powers that be if you want that changed. You won’t, you will just bitch and moan on a review board but that is the way the law works in these situations. So you can get mad at the facts but not at me for pointing them out.

Oh and it my case, yelling didn’t work. The cowards partner hit me in the back of the head and continued to hit me once I went down. So I’m not activating yelling. Again, I’m just stating the law

Its kinda obvious what you're stating here though, Jen.
Of course if someone breaks into your home the first thing you're gonna do is yell at him/her and ask WTF they're doing here.
Its not like you're gonna offer them a cup of tea

 

[Jenesis]

While I don't disagree, it is also very hard for someone in a stressful situation to be "reasonable".
The only exception being chasing and beating down someone who is fleeing - which I think should be unacceptable.
Otherwise if you break into a house, I think the home owner should be justified in using excessive force, to immediately stop the threat, whether or not the intruder is armed.
Any hesitation could possibly turn the tables really quickly and in that moment the home owner cannot take that chance.

Force and excessive force are two different things completely. Which is why one is legally acceptable and the other isn’t.

Its kinda obvious what you're stating here though, Jen.
Of course if someone breaks into your home the first thing you're gonna do is yell at him/her and ask WTF they're doing here.
Its not like you're gonna offer them a cup of tea

Then what is the debate? Why are you even commenting to me to challenge that?

I was clear in saying IF someone runs when yelled at. You and others seem to want to focus on the yelling. If it is obvious and you agree that is what someone is going to do, then what exactly are you trying to debate with me? The law? That is clearly spelled out for you? That is factual and I'm just repeating? Please explain.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Force and excessive force are two different things completely. Which is why one is legally acceptable and the other isn’t.

My point is there is not a good way to distinguish between the two in a potentially dangerous situation.
The right thing to do is to use disproportionate force, to neutralize the threat in front of you asap and not hesitate.
In this case I believe the benefit of the doubt should always go to the home owner, unless of course the home owner went out of his way to kill or maim the intruder. Example: The old man in California who shot dead a woman who was pleading to be let go. That is unacceptable.
But otherwise, I think the home owner should be justified in swiftly using whatever force they think is necessary to stop the intruder.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

This case reminds me a bit of the Milton home invasion where the guy was just protecting his home.
Thankfully the cops came to their senses and dropped all charges.
But the fact they had all the information at their disposal which proved self-defense, and they still went ahead with the charges is a bit concerning IMO.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ali-mian-milton-charges-dropped-murder-1.6923046

 

[Jenesis]

My point is there is not a good way to distinguish between the two in a potentially dangerous situation.
The right thing to do is to use disproportionate force, to neutralize the threat in front of you asap and not hesitate.
In this case I believe the benefit of the doubt should always go to the home owner, unless of course the home owner went out of his way to kill or maim the intruder. Example: The old man in California who shot dead a woman who was pleading to be let go. That is unacceptable.
But otherwise, I think the home owner should be justified in swiftly using whatever force they think is necessary to stop the intruder.

There is a way to distinguish though. When they are fleeing. I know most people in that situation want to keep the person there for arrest but that is not your job. So as soon as they flee, stop the attacking, etc that is the line where you have to stop. Anything beyond that is excessive.

Shooting someone who just illegally walks in your home is excessive. Chasing a the person down and hitting them is excessive.

Punching back someone who is punching until they are down or run is not excessive.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

There is a way to distinguish though. When they are fleeing. I know most people in that situation want to keep the person there for arrest but that is not your job. So as soon as they flee, stop the attacking, etc that is the line where you have to stop. Anything beyond that is excessive.

Shooting someone who just illegally walks in your home is excessive. Chasing a the person down and hitting them is excessive.

Punching back someone who is punching until they are down or run is not excessive.

I agree with not acting when someone is fleeing or even asking to be let go.
But shooting someone who enters your home in the middle of the night should be justified.
These things happen quickly.
Most people are going to first point the gun and ask them to leave, but if the guy lunges forward it should be justified to pull the trigger.

 

[richaceg]

Force and excessive force are two different things completely. Which is why one is legally acceptable and the other isn’t.
Then what is the debate? Why are you even commenting to me to challenge that?

I was clear in saying IF someone runs when yelled at. You and others seem to want to focus on the yelling. If it is obvious and you agree that is what someone is going to do, then what exactly are you trying to debate with me? The law? That is clearly spelled out for you? That is factual and I'm just repeating? Please explain.

There maybe a difference between the 2 but how to measure it in the heat of the moment is impossible. Too many factors to consider.
Is the intruder in desperation mode? Under the influence? has a partner waiting outside? has a knife? If you're a home owner and got the intruder by surprise and got the upper hand, a lot could still go wrong. His recovery, maybe he knows martial arts etc etc...

 

[Jenesis]

I agree with not acting when someone is fleeing or even asking to be let go.
But shooting someone who enters your home in the middle of the night should be justified.
These things happen quickly.
Most people are going to first point the gun and ask them to leave, but if the guy lunges forward it should be justified to pull the trigger.

In that situation, yes. I’m not disputing that. I just stating the difference between force and excessive force and that the ladder gets you arrested. We don’t have a stand your ground law here in Canada.

 

[Jenesis]

There maybe a difference between the 2 but how to measure it in the heat of the moment is impossible. Too many factors to consider.
Is the intruder in desperation mode? Under the influence? has a partner waiting outside? has a knife? If you're a home owner and got the intruder by surprise and got the upper hand, a lot could still go wrong. His recovery, maybe he knows martial arts etc etc...

I’m not saying it is easy. Just that there is a line. I feel for anyone in this situation. I have been on the losing end of it. I don’t wish it upon anyone.

Please understand there is a difference between personal opinion and stating facts.

 

[richaceg]

I’m not saying it is easy. Just that there is a line. I feel for anyone in this situation. I have been on the losing end of it. I don’t wish it upon anyone.

Please understand there is a difference between personal opinion and stating facts.

Oh definitely but like I said...too many variables at play and once you cross that line where it's no longer just threats and physical aspect kicks in we all go into defensive mode and most often than not there's something in our minds that go..."it's either me or him" and most often, that's what the intruder might also think....so it could be "excessive force" but we don't know how one reacts on that situation.

 

[Y_Diner]

"HEY YOU! GET THE HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE!

Try offering them a cup of coffee and some food.
Maybe you can also offer up your wife/gf/daughter too as tribute or a negotiating tool.
Honestly criminals indulge on these far left laxed attitudes towards criminal behaviour.

 

[JeanGary Diablo]

We don't have the Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground laws in Canada. What this means is, you are allowed to defend yourself, but with "reasonable force," which is subjective and ultimately will be based on how a jury feels. It's almost for sure that you will be arrested if you beat an intruder seriously. But, the Crown could decide to drop the charges if they felt there a conviction was unlikely. Canadian law basically says that property can be replaced, but life is precious. It would rather see your new car get stolen than you kill the thief.

And....to be honest, I don't disagree. I mean, if someone came into my home and threatened my family, I'm going to fight to defend them. If they just grab the car keys, I'm not going to grab my rifle and blow them away.

Exactly. Last year I caught a guy breaking into my car. He ended up stealing about $2 in mixed changed. I was righteously pissed off and I was yelling and threatening him -- a total kneejerk reaction to feeling violated -- but he was this stammering waif of a man, probably just looking to fi

While I don't disagree, it is also very hard for someone in a stressful situation to be "reasonable".
The only exception being chasing and beating down someone who is fleeing - which I think should be unacceptable.
Otherwise if you break into a house, I think the home owner should be justified in using excessive force, to immediately stop the threat, whether or not the intruder is armed.
Any hesitation could possibly turn the tables really quickly and in that moment the home owner cannot take that chance.

I really can't argue with this -- I've actually found myself in this position. I caught a guy breaking into my car after I ran back into my friend's house to get something. I was gone 2 minutes and he broke in and stole about $3 in mixed change in my console. I caught him as he was walking away -- I felt violated and was extremely pissed off, yelling at him with some very threatening language. But he was this small waif of a man, probably just trying to scrounge enough change to buy his next hit of smack.

He was of no physical threat to me, but I still felt violated enough that I wanted to belt him. Thankfully, common sense and restraint kicked in and I just let it go.