Plumbers and electricians will rape you good!.......Is there any truth to that?

tboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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333conan said:
yes, I missed one letter. However, you seem to missing the point. If the person I am trying to teach can't understand what I am telling him, it doesn't matter how hard he works, he will still won't have the proper skills . You must somehow think an electrician and an electrical engineer are the same thing. Engineers design things, we actually have to do the work. I have no problem with them getting in the trade, but everyone should have to do an apprenticeship so they can be taught to do the job correctly.
Exactly. And if they are good enough to pass the exam and get their ticket immediately, they should breeze through their apprenticeship. This goes for all other professional trades as well (architects/engineers/doctors).

As for Lava and his spell check comment: Hello pot? This is Lava, YOU'RE BLACK! "there own country". This should be T H E I R not THERE DUH...

For example: I worked with a guy who was an electrician and one time I asked him: where are you from, zimbabwe? And he said "matter of fact I am...." lol. There, every outlet has a switch on it so the power can be cut off making them safe when there are kids around. Actually not a bad idea when you think about it......
 

HAMSTER INSPECTOR

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Jun 3, 2005
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In some states, any jerk can put out a shingle and call himself an electrician. Even TERBies that need a few bucks for a quickie!:eek:
All work has to be checked and approved by a master electrician before the work is signed off on. ( thats the guy that went to school and passed the exams )
 

333conan

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tboy said:
Exactly. And if they are good enough to pass the exam and get their ticket immediately, they should breeze through their apprenticeship. This goes for all other professional trades as well (architects/engineers/doctors).

As for Lava and his spell check comment: Hello pot? This is Lava, YOU'RE BLACK! "there own country". This should be T H E I R not THERE DUH... I guess Lava never heard the expression about people who live in glass houses:p

For example: I worked with a guy who was an electrician and one time I asked him: where are you from, zimbabwe? And he said "matter of fact I am...." lol. There, every outlet has a switch on it so the power can be cut off making them safe when there are kids around. Actually not a bad idea when you think about it......
That idea about every receptacle having it's own switch might not be far off. They brought a new rule in not long ago about every light in a commercial building having it's own disconnect.
 

seth gecko

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333conan said:
Here's something that will come as a shock to some. For what ever reason Ontario will allow electrical engineers from other countries to challenge the electrical exam. If they pass, they get their licence, without having to do an hour of apprenticeship. I have seen workers who can barely speak English and have no experience with the same licence I had to work very hard to get. Be careful who you let work on your house.
Haha! Good one Conan! A "shock" to some!!
Hey, any news on Anette from the "Downer? I've heard she's still going to be MIA for awhile.
 

seth gecko

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HAMSTER INSPECTOR said:
In some states, any jerk can put out a shingle and call himself an electrician. Even TERBies that need a few bucks for a quickie!:eek:
All work has to be checked and approved by a master electrician before the work is signed off on. ( thats the guy that went to school and passed the exams )
In most of the USofA, there is no equivalent of the trade we Canucks know as "gasfitter"; usually a plumber does the piping for natural gas, propane, etc. Which makes some sense, but unfortunately in a lot of cases they know very little about the actual combustion of said gases & safety considerations.
A G1 fitters license can get you LOTS of work opportunities in the states!
 

T.O.tourist

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Watt revolts me, is the current charge of permits.
 

333conan

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seth gecko said:
Haha! Good one Conan! A "shock" to some!!
Hey, any news on Anette from the "Downer? I've heard she's still going to be MIA for awhile.
Thanks, I was wondering if anyone was going to notice my play on words.:D
 

lavameltme

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Being a grduate engineer (U of T) who does not lay claim to good spelling and grammer as you do (english not being my first lanuage) having designed and manufactured electrical components as well as having represented manufacturers on CSA comitties in the last 30 years I think I have a good understanding of how things work. I am very familure with (electrical) contractors. I have also stripped three houses of the old post wiring and completely rewired them. All three pasted Hydro safety inspections. As a home owner I reserve the right to do my own electrical as long as it passes inspection. Electrical engineers are different than electricians but I would suggest that you don't hire one with no English skills. End of problem.

As for laws passed re all this most laws have two motives and two participants. One is to protect the self interest group, and the prices/profits of the group in return for donations to my campaign fund . Two is to cover the governments ass in case of liability.

Just FYI as an independent business person I would not go out to a service call for under 160 to show up at the door. After that a reasonable hourly rate is OK.

As for the bigoted ass holes on this board (tboy) who are proud offspring of all those "wonderful" people who got off the boat and eradicated the native population (I thinks that is called genocide)
maybe you should think about your heritage and then go back to school and learn something besides language
 

tboy

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lava:

http://www.iespell.com/

You aren't the first terb member to ask for this link, so don't get your knickers in a knot.

Sorry, but if you've served on CSA committees etc for 30 yrs, you'd think you would have learned how to spell. I mean 30 yrs? Hell, us EFL types learn to spell in 10.......
 

dj1470

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Always DIY and only get pro help if you really fuck it up. Their price is the same to start from scratch or fix your DIY disaster.
 

papasmerf

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Keep this in mind

You don't pay me for my time spent but rather my expertise. My goal is not to take advantage of you but I am not going to give you a free ride either.

I show up in my van and with thousands of dollars in tools and testers they have value. I have office personel that need to be paid they too have value.

So when you look at 60 or even 100 dollars per hour you need to understand we also have families and this is how we earn our living.

We you expect to go to work and not be paid or paid 30 percent of your rate?
 

seth gecko

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I haven't done any residential work for some time now, and unless you're an immediate relative or very close friend, I won't do resi.....used to be an excellent source of cash jobs, but too often it just isn't worth the aggravation of not getting paid at all for services/parts/equipment, etc.

Once had a guy call me up 3am because his furnace wasn't coming on. Asked him a few questions, he insisted on a service call. Okay, $150 for me to come out, or you okay with that? He says yes, just hurry as the house is getting cold.

Get to the house, ask if he knows where his furnace switch is, and sure enough the switch is turned off....not a tripped breaker but a manual on/off switch turned off. I asked him over the phone earlier if there was power to the furnace & by any chance might have someone switched it off accidently. Now that Seems his kids had some friends over earlier that evening and the homeowner then clues in that one of them must have turned it off either accidently or not knowing that it was the furnace switch & not some lightswitch. But, as he feels he could have turned it on himself IF HE HAD KNOWN, he won't pay what he agreed to....he won't pay anything at all.

Another time agreed on a price to supply & install central a/c - even had a contract. Excellent price for the homeowner & I'd make a few bucks off it also. I asked for 50% payment up front, balance upon completion. Bought the agreed upon a/c unit, installed & checked performance & all is fine, until homeowner decides he won't pay the agreed-upon balance - not because of any installation or performance issues, but because he "did his research" and found what my cost on that unit was. He felt that my mark-up was unreasonable and my labour rate too high. The agreed upon price was originally fine by him, but he thinks I've overcharged him to make a profit for myself!! Tells he I'm extorting him & that I'll have to take him to court.

What can you do....some people are just slimeballs.

I'll stick to ICI where you are, for the most part, dealing with people with some degree of integrity & professionalism. Let the unlicensed hacks deal with the BS.
 

Tangwhich

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333conan said:
That idea about every receptacle having it's own switch might not be far off. They brought a new rule in not long ago about every light in a commercial building having it's own disconnect.
A guy I know was told by ESA that soon (perhaps already?) receptacles are going to be required to be those safety kind that won't let you put anything in the hot side until the neutral has been inserted. That's going to seriously increase the cost of electrical work!
 

Tangwhich

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dj1470 said:
Always DIY and only get pro help if you really fuck it up. Their price is the same to start from scratch or fix your DIY disaster.
I don't agree with you there.. Sometimes they fuck it up so badly that you have to rip it all out and re-start. That means extra labour costs for removing the mess and wasted material.
 

Tangwhich

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lavameltme said:
They had to work hard in there own country to get a degree so English is not a qualification for good work. Yes be careful and get an independent inspector from Hydro to check on even the real electricians
It's not an issue of the quality of their workmanship. As was explained earlier it's about being able to give clear instructions on what to do. Also most of the literature/safety warnings, etc are in English and perhaps French. Mistakes in this job can kill you or others coming behind you.

You can take the electrical exam with the help of an interpreter. It's long been rumoured that guys pay their interpreter to help them with the exam. I was always doubtful of this. However I did work with one guy who took the exam and not only did he pass but he got an excellent mark. I don't think for a second he could have passed that without help. His English was terrible, he never understood any instructions and based on his work I don’t believe he was ever an electrician in his country of origin.
 

lavameltme

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tboy said:
lava:

http://www.iespell.com/

You aren't the first terb member to ask for this link, so don't get your knickers in a knot.

Sorry, but if you've served on CSA committees etc for 30 yrs, you'd think you would have learned how to spell. I mean 30 yrs? Hell, us EFL types learn to spell in 10.......

Spelling is for anal people who use good spelling as an cover for their inability to think. Generally they can't get into engineering . Engineering does not teach spelling it teaches thinking. We hire people who can't think to correct our spelling. If I wanted to pay attention to spelling I would have to stop thinking about content. I am quite capable of using spell check. However their is no software that can help you think.

Oh don't worry that you can't understand what is said above it requires thought but please check the spelling
 

tboy

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lavameltme said:
Spelling is for anal people who use good spelling as an cover for their inability to think. Generally they can't get into engineering . Engineering does not teach spelling it teaches thinking. We hire people who can't think to correct our spelling. If I wanted to pay attention to spelling I would have to stop thinking about content. I am quite capable of using spell check. However their is no software that can help you think.

Oh don't worry that you can't understand what is said above it requires thought but please check the spelling
which is why engineers aren't really understood by anyone but themselves. But to point out the flaws in your "thinking", one has to pass english (which includes reading writing and gasp spelling) to get a high school diploma and in order to get into university one needs a high school diploma. See, spelling, grammar, co-hesive thought, are all indicators of one's intellect. If someone is putting out literature, communications with terrible spelling, that is indicative of someone who isn't detail oriented. I thought engineers were supposed to be detail oriented?

Like I said, by age 10 kids know how to spell. What's your excuse?

Tangwhich said:
I don't agree with you there.. Sometimes they fuck it up so badly that you have to rip it all out and re-start. That means extra labour costs for removing the mess and wasted material.
I agree, I often come across projects (not just electrical oriented) where some ass has really fucked it up and it would take you longer to repair the bs than to start from scratch. For eg: unnecessary breaks in electrical cable. You can't just make a connection wherever you like, it has to be in a box and that box has to be accessible.

As for doing jobs and not getting paid for it. I notice Holmes on Homes NEVER does a show on this problem. I am currently involved in a big project and the customer asked me (really demanded frankly) I do all kinds of extra work. They ever went so far as to say to me "we realize you've done lots of extra work, make sure you invoice us for this"! Yet when I did, they bitched and moaned and argued and I am 99% certain they won't be paying it. (we're talking $14K worth of extra work). A former boss of mine said almost daily: Our work is like that of a hooker, the perceived value of our work is greatly reduced after that service is rendered. Once we've solved the problems for the customers, they aren't as keen on paying as they were before.
 

seth gecko

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tboy said:
which is why engineers aren't really understood by anyone but themselves. But to point out the flaws in your "thinking", one has to pass english (which includes reading writing and gasp spelling) to get a high school diploma and in order to get into university one needs a high school diploma. See, spelling, grammar, co-hesive thought, are all indicators of one's intellect. If someone is putting out literature, communications with terrible spelling, that is indicative of someone who isn't detail oriented. I thought engineers were supposed to be detail oriented?

Like I said, by age 10 kids know how to spell. What's your excuse?



I agree, I often come across projects (not just electrical oriented) where some ass has really fucked it up and it would take you longer to repair the bs than to start from scratch. For eg: unnecessary breaks in electrical cable. You can't just make a connection wherever you like, it has to be in a box and that box has to be accessible.

As for doing jobs and not getting paid for it. I notice Holmes on Homes NEVER does a show on this problem. I am currently involved in a big project and the customer asked me (really demanded frankly) I do all kinds of extra work. They ever went so far as to say to me "we realize you've done lots of extra work, make sure you invoice us for this"! Yet when I did, they bitched and moaned and argued and I am 99% certain they won't be paying it. (we're talking $14K worth of extra work). A former boss of mine said almost daily: Our work is like that of a hooker, the perceived value of our work is greatly reduced after that service is rendered. Once we've solved the problems for the customers, they aren't as keen on paying as they were before.
Well said!
 

james t kirk

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seth gecko said:
I haven't done any residential work for some time now, and unless you're an immediate relative or very close friend, I won't do resi.....used to be an excellent source of cash jobs, but too often it just isn't worth the aggravation of not getting paid at all for services/parts/equipment, etc.

Once had a guy call me up 3am because his furnace wasn't coming on. Asked him a few questions, he insisted on a service call. Okay, $150 for me to come out, or you okay with that? He says yes, just hurry as the house is getting cold.

Get to the house, ask if he knows where his furnace switch is, and sure enough the switch is turned off....not a tripped breaker but a manual on/off switch turned off. I asked him over the phone earlier if there was power to the furnace & by any chance might have someone switched it off accidently. Now that Seems his kids had some friends over earlier that evening and the homeowner then clues in that one of them must have turned it off either accidently or not knowing that it was the furnace switch & not some lightswitch. But, as he feels he could have turned it on himself IF HE HAD KNOWN, he won't pay what he agreed to....he won't pay anything at all.

Another time agreed on a price to supply & install central a/c - even had a contract. Excellent price for the homeowner & I'd make a few bucks off it also. I asked for 50% payment up front, balance upon completion. Bought the agreed upon a/c unit, installed & checked performance & all is fine, until homeowner decides he won't pay the agreed-upon balance - not because of any installation or performance issues, but because he "did his research" and found what my cost on that unit was. He felt that my mark-up was unreasonable and my labour rate too high. The agreed upon price was originally fine by him, but he thinks I've overcharged him to make a profit for myself!! Tells he I'm extorting him & that I'll have to take him to court.

What can you do....some people are just slimeballs.

.
I'm a Professional Engineer.

I do heavy civil work for a living, but I also do residential work as a way to make extra cash. Been working on houses for 25 plus years and I know what I'm doing. You'd be fucking amazed how many assholes I run into who think that my time is free. They figure that because I don't actually swing a hammer that really, all I'm giving them is advice and can't you do this for free?

I'm serious.

Everybody, including some of my contractor friends, think that I'm just a walking source of free information. I have one friend who is a contractor. He thinks nothing of calling me up and asking me my advice on this or that. It starts to irritate me. I tell him - "I'm in the advice business, would I call you and ask you to come over to so and so's house and core a hole through his basement wall for free?"

Him: "Oh that's different"

Me: "Why?"

Him: "Because it's going to take me 3 hours and I have tools and a van, blah blah blah"

Me: "Yeah, and I spent 5 years in University, and 2 years in grad school and 20 years paying my dues in order to be able to answer your question"

Him: "But it will only take you 20 minutes"

"Then you do it."

I had another friend of mine who is a Contractor called me up one time to come and look at this house that belonged to a certain C list female celebrity here in Toronto that everyone over the age of 35 would know. She lives downtown with her good for nothing unemployed fuckwad of husband. They wanted to take the entire back of a structural brick house off, then stick frame an addition onto it.

They had an Architect, but he didn't understand too much.

My buddy knew that ripping the back off a structural brick house is not a good idea and that he had to consider the lateral stability of the adjacent walls, he's just not too sure on how to build the addition without undermining the original structure. (Very smart.)

So I go there.

Yep, you need to reconsider what you're doing.

I meet her.

Her looks are slipping and she's a long way from that cute formerly dough eyed chick on TV.

She doesn't have a fucking clue of what I'm telling her, other than she understands she has a problem and it sounds like it's going to cost her (and her good for nothing fuckwad husband) money.

He comes home.

Give him the same speech as I just gave her with my friend present. He starts getting mouthy with me and my friend. Then he tries to say that it's my friend's responsibility, blah blah blah. He says to my friend and his partner, "You guys are the experts here, not me, and you as professionals with many years of experience should have known that this is required and it's your problem blah blah blah"

(I've seen this sort of tactic many many times and it never works.)

So I say to him, "Look buddy, you hired the Architect, you gave the drawings to my friend, he bid on the drawings, if your drawings are wrong (which they were) then speak to your designer."

He didn't like that.

Anyway, long story short, after some back and forth over a few days, they start to get their head around that the existing structure as such needs to be modified in order to pair up with the new structure and that was not shown in the drawings, etc. (It's never a good idea to pair structural brick with stick framing ever.)

But they're not happy.

But they're liking me because I appear to have the answers, and I own a bulding code which I'm showing them.

So they want to hire me to do the revised design because their architect isn't stepping up to the plate. They also start adding 2 or 3 other things to the scope of work.

Now keep in mind, this job is in full construction.

So I tell him and her, fine, I'll do it, but it's time and materials because this job is so fucked up and so convoluted, that it's impossible for me to estimate.

Fine he says, but he wants to set an upset limit of 5 grand. Fine I say, but keep in mind, once you hit 5 grand, I stop. If you don't hit 5 grand, bennefit is to you.

Fine he says.

The next day, SHE calls me up and true to her religion (guess which one) tells me that my price is too high. I tell her, look, it's a Time and Materials Quote - it's an upset limit. She says, "yeah, but I spoke to your references and they said that you (me) should be able to do this for $3,500.00"

I know she is lying to me because none of them would even have a clue as to what was involved with her project so how could they say anything like that. So I say fine, upset limit of $3,500.00.

Then, a couple of hours later, fuck tard emails me and he tells me that they want me to ensure that I keep my time below 20 hours.

I email fuck tard back and say, "thanks for the job offer, but I decline, have a nice day"

I don't need the money that badly to put up with the two stooges.

I call my friend and explain and he understands and he's about ready to walk off the job, etc.

Fuck tard calls me up all hot and starts to ask what I'm talking about.

By this point, I now feel good. (Do you ever have that feeling that you're invovled with a disaster and you make the call that the money is simply not worth the grief and then once you do make that call, you are at peace with it. That's exactly where I was.)

Yep, I had wasted allot of time, but I hadn't gotten into it and I felt good walking away.
 
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tboy

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James: not as bad as your project, but the same thing is happening to me. Only I'm invoicing for extras which they asked me to do, and told me to invoice them for. They also had another $15K work to be done and have been bugging me for a schedule. I haven't given them the schedule because of the hassles I know I will have getting paid for the work already done. I also made a decision a week ago NOT to promise anything or commit to the new work until they pay for the old. I know exactly how you feel, it is the right decision and I'm sleeping better for it........
 
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