Prisoner exchange
- Thread starter basketcase
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No, according to historians and records it was policy to eradicate villages in order to scare Palestinians out of the country.Diehard, according to your link about 800 people were killed under suspicious/unacceptable circumstances. Of course that's not good, but it seems to me given the scale of that war (i.e., 115000 IDF troops) and the number of people involved that it's reasonable to attribute that to rogue commanders violating central policy, and also seems comparable to, say, war crimes carried out by rogue allied commanders in WW2, in violation of central allied commanders.
Just like settlers in the occupied territories who are armed and fight back? Is that also blurry? Does that make it ok to target them if its ok to target Palestinians defending their homes?Moreover in your link several of those cases were in places where there was active resistance, with locals fighting Israeli forces. In that case the line between a combatant and a civilian becomes blurry, especially for a soldier on the ground who has just been shot at.
You don't, but historians do. You only need to destroy a few villages to terrorize a population.I don't think those numbers support the claim that Israel was following some policy of ethnic cleansing, and I think the relatively small number of cases in your link is consistent with the claim that peaceful Arab villages were, in general, left in peace by IDF and by Haganah before that.
You suspect that, but evidence shown by historians disputes all those claims.The links you've given don't break it down, but I would also suspect that Irgun was responsible for much of that, and as I've noted a few times that policy was opposed by Haganah and by IDF and eventually IDF disarmed Irgun at gunpoint.
In short, you're wrong.
I would say that I'd wait for grog to produce some documentation of these historians but I'm sure that his links would be worth less than used toilet paper.
False.No, according to historians and records it was policy to eradicate villages in order to scare Palestinians out of the country.
You can't just make this shit up groggy. The overwhelming majority of towns and villages captured by Haganah where the residents had not fled were left in peace. Situations like Deir Yassin were the exception, not the rule. As a rule Haganah and IDF did, and still do, practice what they call "purity of arms".
According to you there are no Arabs living in Israel.... fact check time.
Seriously, it is very evident who engaged in ethnic cleansing and who did not: Today there is a large Arab population in Israel, and there are no Jews in any of the surrounding Arab states. That fact should tell you something if you had even two working neurons in your brain.
If the Arabs were so open and inclusive, and Israel such an ethnic cleanser, how is it that Israel wound up with the diverse population, while the Arab states wound up dropping their Jewish populations from tens or hundreds of thousands to zero????
A few moments of reflection should tell you that in general Arabs were left in peace in Israel, otherwise they wouldn't be there today.
That's an easy one to debunk.Seriously, it is very evident who engaged in ethnic cleansing and who did not: Today there is a large Arab population in Israel, and there are no Jews in any of the surrounding Arab states. That fact should tell you something if you had even two working neurons in your brain.
If the Arabs were so open and inclusive, and Israel such an ethnic cleanser, how is it that Israel wound up with the diverse population, while the Arab states wound up dropping their Jewish populations from tens or hundreds of thousands to zero????
A few moments of reflection should tell you that in general Arabs were left in peace in Israel, otherwise they wouldn't be there today.
Israel spent a lot of time doing two things that helped get them where they are now.
They actively encouraged Jews to immigrate, as they still do offering free travel only to Jews.
They actively created situations which made it hard for Jews to stay in Arab countries, largely by violence and terrorist acts like the Lavon affair.
Oh, and check out some details from Hagana's plan D:
Ethnic cleansing was planned and acted out by Jewish terrorists.These operations can be carried out in the following manner: either by destroying villages (by setting fire to them, by blowing them up, and by planting mines in their rubble), and especiallythose population cen-tres that are difficult to control permanently; or by mounting combing and control operations according to the following guidelines: encir-clement of the villages, conducting a search inside them. In case of resistance, the armed forces must be wiped out and the population expelled outside the borders of the state."
Nice of you to point out how Israel welcomes their own kind to come and be part of the country, work hard and receive the benefits of living in a democracy in comparison to the zero Arab nations willing to help out their own kind. They should be welcomed by the others but aren't.That's an easy one to debunk.
Israel spent a lot of time doing two things that helped get them where they are now.
They actively encouraged Jews to immigrate,
The only reason the other Arab nations care about the Palestinians is it makes it easier to have an excuse to blame and hate Israel even more. Helping their own needy people in their countries and removing them from their "plight" only diminishes this motivating factor.
Groggy you you can worm, and you can squirm, and but you're going to get nailed down on this point:
Arab countries dropped their Jewish populations to zero, while Israel retained a large Arab population.
Who were those Arabs who are still in Israel? How did they get there? According to you, there shouldn't be any Arabs in Israel, but there are lots of them.
The answer of course is that they are the descendants of those Arabs who lived in towns and villages and other places that did NOT attack Israeli forces, did NOT listen to Arab propaganda telling them to flee, and when Israel captured the territory they lived in---they were left in peace, and live there still.
Arab countries dropped their Jewish populations to zero, while Israel retained a large Arab population.
Who were those Arabs who are still in Israel? How did they get there? According to you, there shouldn't be any Arabs in Israel, but there are lots of them.
The answer of course is that they are the descendants of those Arabs who lived in towns and villages and other places that did NOT attack Israeli forces, did NOT listen to Arab propaganda telling them to flee, and when Israel captured the territory they lived in---they were left in peace, and live there still.
No, Israel should by rights have a much larger 'Arab' or Palestinian population.Groggy you you can worm, and you can squirm, and but you're going to get nailed down on this point:
Arab countries dropped their Jewish populations to zero, while Israel retained a large Arab population.
Who were those Arabs who are still in Israel? How did they get there? According to you, there shouldn't be any Arabs in Israel, but there are lots of them.
The answer of course is that they are the descendants of those Arabs who lived in towns and villages and other places that did NOT attack Israeli forces, did NOT listen to Arab propaganda telling them to flee, and when Israel captured the territory they lived in---they were left in peace, and live there still.
800,000 were ethnically cleansed from Israel in 1948 and now represent about 4.5 million living in refugee camps outside of Israel.
They should be counted as part of the population of Israel, and ignoring them borders on racism.
They were part of the 531 villages destroyed by Jewish terrorists.
And while some Arab countries put pressure on Jews to emigrate, most of that was because of the anger from episodes like the Lavon affair and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, it was brought on by Jewish actions and actively encouraged by Israel. If there was no attacks in 1948 I'm sure there would still be Jews in quite a few Arab countries.
Groggy, plainly there are Palestinian refugees, the question is why. Did they leave because they were ethnically cleansed? Or because they were told to leave by the Arab leaders of the day? Or scared into leaving by Arab propaganda?
The claim that they were ethnically cleansed is inconsistent with the facts. The fact is that the people who did not flee, who stayed behind, and remained peaceful, are still living there to this day. That is inconsistent with ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile we have statements from the Arab leaders of the day documenting that they did in fact tell Arabs to leave.
Yes, SOME villages were cleared by Israeli forces, and there were SOME cases of Palestinians being massacred by groups like Irgun. However from the link provided earlier by diehard we can see that it was only about 800 Palestinians who were killed by groups like Irgun. Considering we're talking about a war with 100k armies facing off, and hundreds of thousands of civilians migrating, that there were only 800 people killed indicates that people were NOT being forced out by direct violence.
Now people may have been fleeing to get out of a war zone (I know I would) without being ethnically cleansed, and they may have been fleeing because they had been told lies about the incoming army by their own people. It's well documented that the Arabs were spreading all sorts of misinformation about how bad life was going to be under Jewish rule. In retrospect, life under Jewish rule is pretty good! But at the time horror stories were being circulated in the Arab population by the Arab propagandists of the day.
So it's not so simply as saying "look there are refugees", you have to explain why they're there, and you have to explain why the people who didn't flee were left in peace and are still living there in 2011.
What is consistent with ethnic cleansing is the Jewish populations of Arab countries dropping from hundreds of thousands to zero.
The claim that they were ethnically cleansed is inconsistent with the facts. The fact is that the people who did not flee, who stayed behind, and remained peaceful, are still living there to this day. That is inconsistent with ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile we have statements from the Arab leaders of the day documenting that they did in fact tell Arabs to leave.
Yes, SOME villages were cleared by Israeli forces, and there were SOME cases of Palestinians being massacred by groups like Irgun. However from the link provided earlier by diehard we can see that it was only about 800 Palestinians who were killed by groups like Irgun. Considering we're talking about a war with 100k armies facing off, and hundreds of thousands of civilians migrating, that there were only 800 people killed indicates that people were NOT being forced out by direct violence.
Now people may have been fleeing to get out of a war zone (I know I would) without being ethnically cleansed, and they may have been fleeing because they had been told lies about the incoming army by their own people. It's well documented that the Arabs were spreading all sorts of misinformation about how bad life was going to be under Jewish rule. In retrospect, life under Jewish rule is pretty good! But at the time horror stories were being circulated in the Arab population by the Arab propagandists of the day.
So it's not so simply as saying "look there are refugees", you have to explain why they're there, and you have to explain why the people who didn't flee were left in peace and are still living there in 2011.
What is consistent with ethnic cleansing is the Jewish populations of Arab countries dropping from hundreds of thousands to zero.
Like I said before, 531 villages were eradicated and 800,000 were ethnically cleansed, and now live with their descendants now numbering about 4.5 million or so.
They were ethnically cleansed according to plan by Irgun and Hagana et al.
Those are the facts.
It was a long sought goal, here's a quote for you from 1917 on the matter:
Israel is an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing and Jewish terrorism.
They were ethnically cleansed according to plan by Irgun and Hagana et al.
Those are the facts.
It was a long sought goal, here's a quote for you from 1917 on the matter:
Leo Motzkin, put it in 1917:
Our thought is that the colonization of Palestine has to go in two directions: Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and the resettlement of the Arabs of Eretz Israel in areas outside the country. The transfer of so many Arabs may seem at first unacceptable economically, but is
An 'Alleged' Ethnic Cleansing nonetheless practical. It does not require too much money to resettle a Palestinian village on another land.
Israel is an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing and Jewish terrorism.
So you think after your claim is discredited, that simply repeating it is good enough? The flaw in thinking 800k were ethnically cleansed has been demonstrated, you have had no reply, it's clear you have no reasons for the things you think.
Clown.
Clown.
What flaw?So you think after your claim is discredited, that simply repeating it is good enough? The flaw in thinking 800k were ethnically cleansed has been demonstrated, you have had no reply, it's clear you have no reasons for the things you think.
Clown.
I suggest you take a trip to those refugee camps and ask them directly why they are living there and why they left Israel.
This isn't some academic issue, the people are there and have been there for 60 years now awaiting restitution from their ethnic cleansing.
Actually multiple flaws:
1. They left because Arab leaders told them to leave, and
2. Those who stayed behind were left in peace by Israeli forces (and are still there to this day)
I have no doubt that they left because they BELIEVED that they would be harmed, but that belief was Arab propaganda, not reality. They were also told that staying behind would make them collaborators.
The actual statistic is that of the hundreds of thousands of people involved about 800 were killed through excessive or unnecessary use of force. That's proportional with, say, the number of civilians killed by unnecessary use of force in WW2 by allied forces.
1. They left because Arab leaders told them to leave, and
2. Those who stayed behind were left in peace by Israeli forces (and are still there to this day)
I have no doubt that they left because they BELIEVED that they would be harmed, but that belief was Arab propaganda, not reality. They were also told that staying behind would make them collaborators.
The actual statistic is that of the hundreds of thousands of people involved about 800 were killed through excessive or unnecessary use of force. That's proportional with, say, the number of civilians killed by unnecessary use of force in WW2 by allied forces.
Same old arguments?Actually multiple flaws:
1. They left because Arab leaders told them to leave, and
2. Those who stayed behind were left in peace by Israeli forces (and are still there to this day)
1) blaming the messenger again. So its the Arab leaders faults for warning them of Jewish terrorism?
2) those left behind live lives of second class citizens in an apartheid state.
1. Yes, it was the Arab leaders fault for making up misinformation about Jewish terrorism and telling Arab citizens to leave the area when the were was no cause to
2. The Arab citizens left behind enjoy full rights in Israel, and are in fact freer than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East--in fact, much freer than those who fled and became refugees!!!
I am going to reinforce the second point:
The Arabs who stayed behind wound up BETTER OFF than those who fled: Those who stayed behind enjoy full democratic rights, better economic prospects, and greater peace and security than those who fled.
The Arab propaganda of the day that those who stayed behind would all be tortured/raped/murdered and whatever other misinformation they were spreading was clearly false. We can see that the opposite resulted: Palestinians were better off to stay put.
2. The Arab citizens left behind enjoy full rights in Israel, and are in fact freer than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East--in fact, much freer than those who fled and became refugees!!!
I am going to reinforce the second point:
The Arabs who stayed behind wound up BETTER OFF than those who fled: Those who stayed behind enjoy full democratic rights, better economic prospects, and greater peace and security than those who fled.
The Arab propaganda of the day that those who stayed behind would all be tortured/raped/murdered and whatever other misinformation they were spreading was clearly false. We can see that the opposite resulted: Palestinians were better off to stay put.
Still peddling those two falsehoods, blaming the messenger and pretending that apartheid doesn't exist?
Here's a bit more on the first few villages that were cleansed in 1948:
Here's a bit more on the first few villages that were cleansed in 1948:
or this, on Jaffa:The first targets were three villages around the ancient Roman city of Caesarea, a town whose impressive history went all the way back to the Phoenicians. Established as a trading colony, Herod the Great later named it Caesarea in honour of his patron in Rome, Augustus Caesar. The largest of these villages was Qisarya, where 1500 people lived within the ancient walls of the old city. Among them, as was quite common in the Palestinian villages on the coast, were several Jewish families who had bought land there and lived practically inside the village. Most of the villagers lived in stone houses next to Bedouin families, who were part ofthe village but still lived in tents. The village wells provided enough water for both the semi-seden- tary and the peasant communities, and allowed them to cultivate extensive tracts ofland and grow a wide range of agricultural produce, including cit- rus fruit and bananas. Thus, Qisarya was a typical model ofthe live-and-let- live attitude that pervaded coastal rural life in Palestine.
The three villages were chosen because they were easy prey: they had no defence force ofany kind, neither local nor volunteers from the outside. The order came on 5 February to occupy, expel and destroy them."
Qisarya was the first village to be expelled in its entirety, on 15 February 1948. The expulsion took only a few hours and was carried out so systemat- ically that the Jewish troops were able to evacuate and destroy another four villages on the same day, all under the watchful eyes ofthe British troops sta- tinned in police stations nearby."
76 The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
The second village was Barrat Qisarya ('outside Qaysariyya'), which had a population of about 1000. There are a number of photographs from the 1930s of this village showing its picturesque location on the sandy beach close to the ruins of the Roman city. It was wiped out in February in an attack so sudden and fierce that both Israeli and Palestinian historians refer to its disappearance as quite enigmatic. Today a Jewish development town, Or Akiva, stretches out over every square metre of this destroyed village. Some old houses were still standing in the town in the 1970s, but they were quickly demolished when Palestinian research teams tried to document them as part of an overall attempt to reconstruct the Palestinian heritage in this part of the country.
Similarly, only vague information exists about the nearby village of Khirbat al-Burj. This village was smaller than the other two and its remains are still visible to the observant eye if one travels through the area east ofthe veteran Jewish settlement of Binyamina (relatively 'veteran', as it dates from 1922). The major building in the village wasan Ottoman inn, a khan, and it is the only building still standing. Called the Burj, the plaque nearby will tell you that once this was a historic castle - not a word is said about the village. Today the building is a popular Israeli venue for exhibitions, fairs and family celebrations.71
All in all, Jaffa enjoyed the largest defense force available to the Palestinians in any given locality: a total of 1500 volunteers confronted the 5000 Jewish troops. They survived a three-week siege and attack that began in the middle of April and ended in the middle of May. When Jaffa fell, its entire population of 50,000 was expelled with the 'help' of British media- tion, meaning that their flight was less chaotic than in Haifa. Still, there were scenes reminiscent ofthe horrors that took place in the northern harbour of Haifa: people were literally pushed into the sea when the crowds tried to board the far-too-small fishing boats that would take them to Gaza, while Jewish troops shot over their heads to hasten their expulsion.
Who the hell knows what you are pasting now, or from where. I don't doubt it's from some Palestinian propaganda site and not some sort of unbiased source.
For you to make your point you would need to show:
1. That the residents were peaceful, and did not engage in fighting with Israeli forces
2. That they did not flee of their own accord in advance of the Israeli advance, and
3. That they were then somehow forcibly removed
You still haven't explained how it is that the Arabs who stayed behind were left to live in peace and still live peacefully in Israel, and have ever since enjoyed greater rights, freedom, and security than those who went to Jordan........ guess you never will explain that!!
For you to make your point you would need to show:
1. That the residents were peaceful, and did not engage in fighting with Israeli forces
2. That they did not flee of their own accord in advance of the Israeli advance, and
3. That they were then somehow forcibly removed
You still haven't explained how it is that the Arabs who stayed behind were left to live in peace and still live peacefully in Israel, and have ever since enjoyed greater rights, freedom, and security than those who went to Jordan........ guess you never will explain that!!
The quotes are from 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' 2006 by Ilan Pappe, as previously posted. I'm still working my way through the thing, so there will be more to come for you.
He is also a strong supporter of the one state solution and equal human rights for all.
Oh, and to answer your points.
1) What difference would the response make in the face of terrorists implementing a policy of ethnic cleansing? They cleaned out villages and towns regardless of the response.
2) Flee of their own accord? You think it doesn't count of ethnic cleansing if you scare the people out, instead of force them out?
3) Why do I need to show they were forcibly removed? Take a flight and visit the refugee camps and ask them. They're still waiting.
And your definition of equal rights now means living as second class citizens in an apartheid state.
He is also a strong supporter of the one state solution and equal human rights for all.
Oh, and to answer your points.
1) What difference would the response make in the face of terrorists implementing a policy of ethnic cleansing? They cleaned out villages and towns regardless of the response.
2) Flee of their own accord? You think it doesn't count of ethnic cleansing if you scare the people out, instead of force them out?
3) Why do I need to show they were forcibly removed? Take a flight and visit the refugee camps and ask them. They're still waiting.
And your definition of equal rights now means living as second class citizens in an apartheid state.
1. What terrorists? You are not pretending that Haganah is Irgun, are you?? It seems your whole argument depends on this fraudulent claim
2. When people flee of their own accord it's not ethnic cleansing, it happens in every war, people don't like to be around battles
3. Because if they weren't forcibly removed it wasn't ethnic cleansing dork
2. When people flee of their own accord it's not ethnic cleansing, it happens in every war, people don't like to be around battles
3. Because if they weren't forcibly removed it wasn't ethnic cleansing dork
As Goldstone points out Palestinians enjoy full and equal democratic rights and participation in Israel, they are not second class citizens, you are simply flat out lying.And your definition of equal rights now means living as second class citizens in an apartheid state.
Not only are they full citizens, those who stayed behind in 1948 wound up with more rights and freedoms, more security, and more prosperity than those who fled to Jordan or Lebanon.
Let me state that again for the record: If you were an Arab in Israel in 1948 you were better off if you stayed put and didn't flee.
