raptors...how to improve

[jw01]

i have watched all the raptors game so far this year! im not that pissed about them not winning, thats mainly b/c i want the lottery for 2006, hopefully if not #1 pick #2 or that would just sux! anyz, back to what i was saying....i got 3 things i think the raptors can really benefit from

1) trade jalen...i know it's hard with his huge contract but once again we got babcock neogitating so it's probably not gonna take us anywhere, except downhill

2) matt bonner....the guy needs to go to the NBDL along with arujo (and i wont even go there about him)!...bonner cant play this year and i dont understand mitchell putting him out there against the sonics in OT and stuff..pfff

3) im pretty sure Radmanovik from the sonics is in the market...if not now then later and i really think the raptors can get places with him! one, b/c he's serbian so he's bound to bring alot of the attendance cause of the big serbian community we got here and two, because he can PLAY and SHOOT! he'd prob have a similar role to that of Dirk from dallas! but oh well...

go raptors!

 

[vick187]

raptors how to improve!!

GET A NEW GM! if they get a respectable Gm who knows what he is doing, we wouldn't have dirt bag players like matt bonner(last year was a fluke! have no clue why they wud sign him to a 2yr/4mil deal! shud be making the league minimium), loren woods (mengke bateer was better), rafel araujo(they good have gotten some1 way better with the 8th pick i.e: andre iguodala exciting player, al jefferson playin well for boston, josh smith slam dunk champ!) and they got ripped off in the vince deal - they could have possibly gotten someone like ray allen or jamal magloire!!! both who expressed interest in playin here!

 

[Dynamite_Kid]

i agree with all of you..... especially with trading jalen....we should just keep bosh, villeneuva, graham, mike james, calderon, and maybe mo pete, but start getting rid of the rest, they just no good here in t.o

 

[Brownie69]

The Raptors just need to stay the course and hope Bosh sticks with the francise.

The Raps are young and talented now, in 3 years they will be good but until then you'll go through the growing pains. Why do I say 3 years? Cause we'll have at least 2 more draft picks playing on this team. Bosh and this year's crop of picks will be seasoned and we'll be rid of big contracts like Rose's and Alvin's by then.

The fans just need to stick with this team. I know its a lot to ask, but the Raps can still be entertaining this year even if they lose 60 games.

 

[Big Papa Smurf]

Raptor fans are really a sad bunch . First, Babcock is cleaning Grunwald's mess. Grunwald was content to making to the playoffs and then getting knocked out of the 1st round. That's why he threw away valuable picks on duds like Lamond Murray, Lindsey Hunter, and drafted guys like Chris Jefferies, Michael Bradley, and signed guys like Nate Huffman. Grunwald also scewed up the Raps cap space with horrible signings of Olajuwon, an Stewart.

At least Babcock is trying to build a legit championship team. Babcock has already accomplished phase 1 of the rebuilding project. With the exception of Alvin Williams and the young guys, every other contract expires in two years. All the deals he's made, and buyouts were geared towards capspace towards the 2007 season.

In 2007, the Raps will have 25+ million in capspace( or more depending on the salary cap) available. Now, that doesn't mean he's going to sign big name free agents. No big time free agent is going to come here. That's just a fact you Raptor fans are going to have to accept. However, what all that cap space will do is give him more trade flexibility. He will have no trade restrictions to acquire the players he wants. That means he can trade for a palyer making 18+ million for a player making less than 2 million.

The 2nd phase of Babcock's plan is to acquire tradable assets (players with upside, and reasonable contracts) Babcock has already done that. Bosh, Villanueva, Graham, Bonner, Araujo, Calderon, Ukic, and Sow fit that category. The Raps also have 2 draft picks in 2006.

 

[unshavencuban]

leave town would work for me
New Orleans needs a new NBA team

 

[Big Papa Smurf]

Wow! The Canadian puckheads are really out tonight.

 

[holden]

At least Babcock is trying to build a legit championship team.

By drafting Hoffa??

 

[Big Papa Smurf]

Judge Babcock when his plan for rebuilding the franchise is complete. To base whether or not Babcock is a competent GM through 1 pick is ridiculous. If that were the case then Joe Dumars, Jery Krause, and Jerry West should also receive criticism for drafting more busts than Rob Babcock in their careers. I've seen my Miwaukee Bucks struggle badly in the mid-70's after they traded Jabbar, and it was a long rebuilding process. The key is patience because Babcock has already laid the groundwork to a better future.

 

[bigdik]

When a franchise is as screwed up as the Raptors were when Babcock took over, you have to give the new guy time. The slagging of Babcock is the same as the crap about JP Ricciardi. These guys are working on a longer timeline to hopefully build a franchise that can succeed for a long time. I'm not a basketball fan, so I can't judge the job this guy is doing to this point, but if you expect success now, it ain't gonna happen. Any success in the next couple of years will be incidental. The plan is to build a foundation. If there's going to be an NBA team in Toronto, this is a necessity. 2 or 3 years from now, if there's no progress, string him up. To blame Babcock and Mitchell for the dreck on the court now is misguided. The problem though is in Toronto there may not be time to build. Looks like Pittsburgh is going to have a nice new building around 2007 or 8. Pittsburgh Raptors? Yeah, that could work.

 

[vick187]

i'm notting judging babcock on just on epick i'm judging babcock for all of things he had done since comin to Toronto!! How one day he say one thing and the next day he says another!!!

i.e after drafting araujo he explained it by sayin i draft in order to fill spots on ur team that need to be filled and we needed a centre so we drafted one and this after the draft when he was being crticized for drafting villaneuva (who i think was a pretty good pick!!) he said he likes drafting players that have the most talent and he didn't mind if he already had bosh at power forward!!

 

[matrix2004]

The key is patience because Babcock has already laid the groundwork to a better future.

Papa Smurf has a point. Re-building is a long and painful (to watch) process. It doesn't happen overnight. The Leafs were 're-building' during the entire decade of the 80's. But at least there IS light at the end of the tunnel. The 3 rookies have shown alot of promise. Let them play and develop- it's the only way they're gonna get better (they're not too bad now- imagine in a couple of years).

Even though I like Jalen's game, he needs to go. It's best for both parties involved. He wants to play for a contender and the Raps need to unload his bloated contract from their payroll. Unfortunately there aren't too many too many takers (except NY maybe?) because of his salary.

Make no mistake, the Raps will lose alot of games this year. But it's a necessary process. True fans will understand and support this team- through good times and bad. As for bandwagoners- there's always other sports to follow in the winter. Like football, hockey or curling. Check back in a couple of years.

GO RAPS GO!

 

[holden]

Judge Babcock when his plan for rebuilding the franchise is complete. To base whether or not Babcock is a competent GM through 1 pick is ridiculous. If that were the case then Joe Dumars, Jery Krause, and Jerry West should also receive criticism for drafting more busts than Rob Babcock in their careers. I've seen my Miwaukee Bucks struggle badly in the mid-70's after they traded Jabbar, and it was a long rebuilding process. The key is patience because Babcock has already laid the groundwork to a better future.

I'm not judging Babcock on one pick - he hasn't done anything right - It's not just me or toronto media, it's every media in North America from ESPN, SI, FOX, NY times, Chicago Tribune, Jalen Rose, TNT - not one of these semi knowlegeble basket ball pros thinks Babcock is a competent GM. There was only one article that said Babcock did good this time by drafting CV. So can all these people with incredible BBall Knowledge be wrong

Also Babcock listens to his retard brother Pete Babcock who single handedly kept the Atlanta Hawks in the cellar for a friggin decade - So we got 2 dumbasses instead of 1 - even with cap space who the hell wants to sign with Toronto - Jamal is over the hill by 2007 - trades will not work either, I don't think any team will want to give up their superstar for cap space, they will unload has been super stars for cap space

 

[d9139ont]

agree with Papa Smurf

I agree with you Papa Smurf. Holden; I think your statement and some others' are a bit ignorant. The media for the most part is there to exaggerate and sell papers. The media does not know what goes on behind closed doors. I would argue that the media knows way less about each individual player than any GM. Having said that no GM is perfect. Babcock makes one bad pick in Aruajo and you jump on him. (By the way. Carter was not a very attractive trade commodity. Babcock did the best he could considering the circumstances and Carter's bad attitude and softness. Teams shied away. A sulking 'star' is nothing but bad for a lockerroom.) The Raptors do their research. Babcock made what looks like 4 good picks in this year's draft. Look at the Bulls. They took time to build a championship team as did San Antonio. The Bulls went from champs to chumps but are headed in the right direction again which has taken several years by drafting. It just goes to show how the media influences people who cannot think for themselves. Do your research, see the whole picture and look long-term. Some of you make like the Raptors have all this money to sign anyone. Babcock is cleaning up a mess. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. This team is young and raw. Even if they had cap room to sign a big name free agent this team would not be a championship contender for at least a couple of years. I am more excited about this team and its future than I have been the past Carter-injury plagued couple of seasons.

 

[holden]

Do your research, see the whole picture and look long-term. Some of you make like the Raptors have all this money to sign anyone.

No idea where you got the idea that people in this thread think the raps have all this money to sign anyone - there's a thing called a cap

First no one wants to come here - it's considered basketball wasteland just like no one wants to go to Atlanta, clippers, chicago (remember when they had all that cap space and couldn't sign anyone), well raptors are considered worst

Babcock's mistakes

-Hoffa instead of Iggy(which was the choice in mock drafts by the media - so I suppose the raptors knew more about Hoffa then the media)

- Signed Alston to a ridiculous deal - lucky he got traded for mike (who shots just like alston) james

- Essentially gave Vince carter for Joey Graham(plus denver number 1 pick) and paid off the other vets - so you saying that's all any other GM's could have gotten (even grunwald could have gotten more)

- Got nothing for Donyell Marshall when he was the hottest Comodity at the trade deadline, every play-off contender wanted him - hell he could have gotten Nazer Mohommed(who is young centre who plays defense and rebounds) for Marshall (Isiah gave Nazer away for Malik Rose) - Nazer and Marshall had similiar salaries


-I think there's several more things he did wrong

-current draft picks

-CV the only NBA starter out of current draft picks is lazy - does not play hard all the time (in 6 games so far) can't play defense for that matter no one on the raps plays defense

-Joey Graham is destined to be a NBA bench player at best

-the spanish point card will suck once the rest of the NBA adjusts to his game just like Bonner - other point guards don't have him on their radar yet

Oh yeah Bosh is not a superstar type player, he will be a very good player some day if he can learn to play defense and block shots (so I don't really listen to the media)

 

[Big Papa Smurf]

-Hoffa instead of Iggy(which was the choice in mock drafts by the media - so I suppose the raptors knew more about Hoffa then the media)

Ok. I'll give you that. However, Joe Dumars, Jerry West, and Jerry Krause also drafted busts during their teams rise to the top. Krause, drafted Brad Sellers at #9 in '86. West drafted George Lynch at #9 in '93. Dumars drafted Rodney White at #9 in '02. All were mistakes, but they were corrected after the mistake was realized.

- Signed Alston to a ridiculous deal - lucky he got traded for mike (who shots just like alston) james

I liked the Alston signing. Aside from the off-court issues, he had decent numbers which justified the signing. Even if think it was a mistake, Babcock corrected it by trading him for capspace in 2 years.

- Essentially gave Vince carter for Joey Graham(plus denver number 1 pick) and paid off the other vets - so you saying that's all any other GM's could have gotten (even grunwald could have gotten more)

You nor I know what Babcock was offered. There were 3 reported trades by the media. All of them made no sense in Babcock's plan in clearing capspace and attaining "tradable assets".

The New York deal for Thomas and Hardaway was only for cap clearing purposes only. With both Carter and Rose gone, the Raps would of had cap space, but NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY IN TORONTO. So cap space is useless, and no tradable assets would have been received from New York.

The deal invovling Memphis would have been a lateral move. Both Mike Miller and Bonzi Wells were overpaid with lengthy contracts. I doubt that you would have made that move yourself.

Portland wanted Carter and Rose, but they were only willing to give up Rahim and Anderson to get him. Rahim would have bolted after the year, and Anderson had a lengthy contract that would not have cleared enough capspace.

The Jersey deal made sense because the Raps (1) cleared cap space for 2007 (2) acquired "tradable assets" in the two draft picks (3)getting rid of Carter's contract ensured that the Raps would be below the tax threshold in order to use their mid-level exception to sign free agents for the next two years.

- Got nothing for Donyell Marshall when he was the hottest Comodity at the trade deadline, every play-off contender wanted him - hell he could have gotten Nazer Mohommed(who is young centre who plays defense and rebounds) for Marshall (Isiah gave Nazer away for Malik Rose) - Nazer and Marshall had similiar salaries

Babcock said the reason he didn't make a trade was that teams were offering players with long-term contracts for Marshall. That is not part of his plan.

You also forgot that the Spurs gave up two 1st rounders in that deal. The Raps can't deal any of their own 1st rounders because they still owe Charlotte a 1st rounder for the Murray/Stewart deal with Cleveland.

-CV the only NBA starter out of current draft picks is lazy - does not play hard all the time (in 6 games so far) can't play defense for that matter no one on the raps plays defense

-Joey Graham is destined to be a NBA bench player at best

-the spanish point card will suck once the rest of the NBA adjusts to his game just like Bonner - other point guards don't have him on their radar yet

Oh yeah Bosh is not a superstar type player, he will be a very good player some day if he can learn to play defense and block shots (so I don't really listen to the media)

And you are basing this on a few regular season games, college games, and scouting reports from fan websites like draftnet and realgm?

Like I said, wait a few years when these players are nearing their prime to determine whether they were good picks or not. Heck, Babs might even trade them next year.

 

[slowandeasy]

Papa Smurf has a point. Re-building is a long and painful (to watch) process. It doesn't happen overnight. The Leafs were 're-building' during the entire decade of the 80's. But at least there IS light at the end of the tunnel. The 3 rookies have shown alot of promise. Let them play and develop- it's the only way they're gonna get better (they're not too bad now- imagine in a couple of years).

There has been light at the end of the tunnel for year now, but it never seems to materialize. I would like to give Babcock the benefit of the doubt and believe that they have a plan, but that plan seems very very cloudy..

There are a number of huge problems with Babcock's plan:
1. The drafting of Arrujo in the first round was not a good move
2. The handling and trade of Carter was a farce
3. The gamble on Mourning was a bad one... then buying him out
for 10,000,000 so that he could play for Miami looked really bad (I know
that it cleared some cap room)
4. The drafting of another power forward who wants to hang around the
three point line while your coach is screaming that he needs interior
defence and rebounding
5. Letting Chauncey Billups (ok that had nothing to do with him, but I was on
a roll there)

I agree that Babcock and Mitchell were handled a steaming pile of shit and was asked to cultivate it, but the Raps have run out of excuses along time ago...

Personally, all I would like to see is a team that is competitive, plays tough defence, gets good ball movement on offence, and shows alot of heart.

Someone was talking about cap room for the 2007 year... holy shit... that means we have two more years of crappy basketball???

 

[matrix2004]

There are a number of huge problems with Babcock's plan:
1. The drafting of Arrujo in the first round was not a good move
2. The handling and trade of Carter was a farce
3. The gamble on Mourning was a bad one... then buying him out
for 10,000,000 so that he could play for Miami looked really bad (I know
that it cleared some cap room)
4. The drafting of another power forward who wants to hang around the
three point line while your coach is screaming that he needs interior
defence and rebounding

>1. Drafting Hoffa was/is a universally agreed upon bad move. The point has also been beaten to death many times over. The only way Araujo will benefit the team is if he becomes a ballboy.

>2 & 3 are from the same move. I agree and I've already voiced my displeasure of the deal in previous posts. I think a better deal could have been made. But it's over and done w/ so we have to make the best of it.

>4.When CV3 was drafted, I have to admit I was baffled like most. But having watched him play, I 'm not as upset as I was on draft night. He may be labelled a PF, but I see him more as a 'tweener'. He can play different positions and cause match-up problems. He does hang around the 3 pt arc alot (like Donyell did) , but he also has some inside finesse moves that I think he'll use more often once he gets more acclimated to the NBA game. I also think the rebounds will come. If he turns out to be a higher scoring version of Donyell, I think alot of people will be satisfied w/ that.

I'm still not sold on Babcock as GM, but his pick-ups from draft night haven't been too bad thus far, so maybe he'll go on a roll.

Personally, all I would like to see is a team that is competitive, plays tough defence, gets good ball movement on offence, and shows alot of heart.

In other words, you want to see a play-off caliber team. I'd like that too, but we're re-building. We're not there yet.

Someone was talking about cap room for the 2007 year... holy shit... that means we have two more years of crappy basketball???

Unfortunately...yes. Look at it this way- the longer it rains, the more you'll appreciate the sun when it finally comes out.

 

[d9139ont]

Papa Smurf. Of course 6 games is a lot of time; for those (idiots) that were analysing the team after one pre-season game and making conclusions about each player.

I am frustrated at times with their lack of defense but again this is a young team. Give them time to learn the NBA game. Time does not mean 1, 5 or 10 games or even a season. Give these young guys at least a couple of seasons. Graham has been disappointing but so have other rookies drafted this year and in the past. 6 games is not a lot of NBA experience and time to make a final judgement. This guy comes from a solid college program.

I think this team has shown some heart this season. They could have rolled over after being down by 18 to Seattle and stopped playing hard. Ok, ya sure they did not play hard for all 48 minutes (which is something they have to learn and need to do to win) but they came back and did not give up. They did not roll over against the Nets when they were down by 25 but played hard to cut the lead to single digits in the fourth.

I guess it depends on your definition of crappy basketball. This team plays entertaining basketball; frustrating to watch at times but entertaining also. It is certainly way more entertaining than Lenny’s last season and O’Neill’s season here.

Ya, in hindsight the Auarjo pick does not look like a success. But they based their decision on the information they had at that time including the desire to get a big body that could rebound and had college experience. Based on what he did in college and his international experience they did what they did. It was not a deep draft and I am not an expert but I don’t think there were any big guys with college experience that they saw at that pick who they thought were better than Auarjo. But what GM is perfect.

The media seems to know all apparently. I am sure 4 or 5 years ago the majority of the media were picking the Pistons to win the 2004 NBA Final and do it in dominating fashion against the almighty Lakers. How many criticized the Pistons for getting Rasheed Wallace and assumed he would divide the team instead of help? Not many GMs especially the good ones make decisions based on the opinions of the media. The GMs job is not to make popular decisions but those that he thinks will make the team better.

And ya. Maybe Toronto will have to endure a couple of more bad seasons; maybe really bad seasons. Those are the growing pains when it comes to the youth plan. And who is to say Babcock will not make a trade sometime this season or next season for a good veteran or two. With the high draft pick he is likely to get next year, the other draft picks and some of the young talented players under the Raptors he is giving himself some flexibility which he did not have when he came onto the scene. Whatever he does it has to be good for the long-term goal; winning a conference title and then the NBA title. That is the general goal of most NBA teams. Some are farther along than others. Choosing the player with the best stats is not always the answer. Team chemistry is important. Building a team is not an exact science.

Babcock should not be criticized for a couple of more seasons. If things do not look a whole lot better by 2007 or 2008 then criticize him and the Raptors organization at that time.

Time will tell. True Raptor fans should have patience and I believe will be rewarded.

 

[jw01]

i dont mean to mock any1, but LOL, it seems like babcock has a terb account in Big Papa Smurf! lol...at one point when he was talking about the marshall trade, i remember babcock saying wat he stated before the season started...its jks...anyz....no matter how you put it, the raptors dont anyone legit!

bosh....aint a allstar yet..it'll take time
jose....cant shoot for shit, only drive and once teams have him figured pff
bonner....like i said...NBDL baby
arujo...should be in collage still lol, dont understand why babcock wont be honest about arujo being a bust...he flat out said the raps will sux this year during the summer lol...why not admit ur mistake....wat a fag!
alvin.....wow just hopeing he can get back to normal! he's amazing
charlie V...i like wat i see, he's a sik/exciting player but doesnt seem interested to post or play D
graham...he needs to work on his confidence and start driving to the net
sow....well dont kno ..cause he barely plays
aaron....3rd or 4th center...solid veteran...would benefit playing in lik seattle or sumthing
eric....w/e lol...still better than woods and arujo
woods...i actually met em during the summer...and not so suprisingly hewas as lost as he is on the court
mo pete....gud off the bench
james....who is mike james? loll....he should become a rapper also...but nah...he's a solid bench guy

so ya...if there is any hope...well...lets just hope there are gud/upside players in this coming 06 draft lottery!

GO RAPs