I know that electrician's in TO can make anywhere from 40 K to over 100K (including overtime) depending on ther skills - I just turned down a 90 K job in TO from the high end of electrical (programming shit which is my specialty) after the offer I reasearch TO rates for Sparkies, Damn the money sounded great but after moving and the cost of a similar house/lot to what I have now in the long run it would be the same takehome - I'll keep what I have - but it is interesting - just alway comapre the cost of living compared to what you already have if you have to relocate
Salary survey of occupations in Toronto
- Thread starter stinkynuts
- Start date
As I personally joined the "trades" from a salaried office position I can say that there are not enough skilled tradesmen in Canada. I forget where I read it but supposedly in about 5 yrs (with retirements etc) there will be a major shortage.
As with all professions, do you want a no brain, no skill dumb MOFO doing the framing of your house? Remember: if he doesn't do his job well, your house could fall down. Just because someone doesn't have a college education doesn't mean he (or she) isn't intelligent. I think it was Donald Trump who said: don't think you're smarter than a contractor, not only will be take all your money, but he will make you smile while he's doing it! lol
As for the analogy of the bricklayer/architect: I have yet to meet an architect that makes less than 50K a year. None the less, the architect draws the building, the trades put it up. Anyone can draw 2 steel i beams touching each other, but you have to have skill to weld them together properly. This goes for any trade though. But architects/designers and trades need each other, without either and the building industry would fall on its face.
Another thing about salary, and this is the main reason i left: I worked (on average) about 60 - 70 hrs a week, and sometimes as much as 80 - 90. At 54K (which I was making) calculated at 37.5 hrs a week at 27.69/hr I was really only making 14.82/hr with tons of stress and no life. My first week on the new job I worked 100 hrs and my paycheck was 1800.00 +/-. Sure, the work is sometimes hard but I tell you, I am stronger than I have ever been in my life.
No matter what anyone says, teachers do NOT have it easy. Especially in high/seconday school: How would you like to try to teach something to kids who (for the most part) a) don't want to be there and b) don't give a rat's ass about what you're trying to do......I could never figure this out: if a kid skips school, what is the punishment? MAKE him stay home....LOL
As with all professions, do you want a no brain, no skill dumb MOFO doing the framing of your house? Remember: if he doesn't do his job well, your house could fall down. Just because someone doesn't have a college education doesn't mean he (or she) isn't intelligent. I think it was Donald Trump who said: don't think you're smarter than a contractor, not only will be take all your money, but he will make you smile while he's doing it! lol
As for the analogy of the bricklayer/architect: I have yet to meet an architect that makes less than 50K a year. None the less, the architect draws the building, the trades put it up. Anyone can draw 2 steel i beams touching each other, but you have to have skill to weld them together properly. This goes for any trade though. But architects/designers and trades need each other, without either and the building industry would fall on its face.
Another thing about salary, and this is the main reason i left: I worked (on average) about 60 - 70 hrs a week, and sometimes as much as 80 - 90. At 54K (which I was making) calculated at 37.5 hrs a week at 27.69/hr I was really only making 14.82/hr with tons of stress and no life. My first week on the new job I worked 100 hrs and my paycheck was 1800.00 +/-. Sure, the work is sometimes hard but I tell you, I am stronger than I have ever been in my life.
No matter what anyone says, teachers do NOT have it easy. Especially in high/seconday school: How would you like to try to teach something to kids who (for the most part) a) don't want to be there and b) don't give a rat's ass about what you're trying to do......I could never figure this out: if a kid skips school, what is the punishment? MAKE him stay home....LOL
An engineer would draw those two lines actually, but if you think that it doesn't take a whole heck of a lot of skill to be a good architect or engineer, I beg to disagree.tboy said:
What size are those beams?
Do they have sufficient capacity to meet bending / shear / deflection?
Did you analyze for loading during construction when the beams are not braced?
Are those beams available in Canada?
What about the connection details?
Do you want those beams to be simply supported, or can they be continuous to save a few bucks on the material?
What about head room?
How is the HVAC guy going to run his ducts through those beams?
2 lines indeed.
Actually James, in all my experience with architects and engineers, the architect would draw the beams and the engineer would approve the drawing.
yes, all those factors you mentioned come into play when drawing a building and one needs a solid education to become an architect. I wasn't saying that. I was simply stating that the trades are as important to construction as the people who design the structures. I worked for a company and the people who designed the retail buildings were just kids out of high school. There were about 8 of them, and 3 superiors with education to approve the drawings. If memory serves I think only 1 of the 8 had any post secondary education. Now I am not saying a retail big box store is the same as a 100 story condominium building, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the ones doing most of the drawings aren't engineers or full blown architects.
yes, all those factors you mentioned come into play when drawing a building and one needs a solid education to become an architect. I wasn't saying that. I was simply stating that the trades are as important to construction as the people who design the structures. I worked for a company and the people who designed the retail buildings were just kids out of high school. There were about 8 of them, and 3 superiors with education to approve the drawings. If memory serves I think only 1 of the 8 had any post secondary education. Now I am not saying a retail big box store is the same as a 100 story condominium building, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the ones doing most of the drawings aren't engineers or full blown architects.
Engineers, being the geeks that they are, created an auction environement for their services (lowest bidder wins mentality). When was the last time a lawyer lowered their fees to get a job? The profession did itself a dis-service by creating a bidding process.
western society, as a whole, is overeducated and undertained...but we still continue to put more worth in training than experience...go figure.
You have absolutely no respect for teachers i see, personally I see them as being under paid for the amount of work they do.james t kirk said:
I deal with Teachers all day and at various private schools around Toronto.... I don't know if they are over paid or under paid. My only problem is that unlike terrorists, you cannot negotiate with Teachers.
The other thing is, with teachers from the public school system you always hear the complaint, "If only we had enough money." Well guess what in the private system the schools have enough money to buy all the teaching toys and they have the exact same problems. It is not the money factor as much as it is the human factor.
I always tell my son bricklaying is the way to go.
The other thing is, with teachers from the public school system you always hear the complaint, "If only we had enough money." Well guess what in the private system the schools have enough money to buy all the teaching toys and they have the exact same problems. It is not the money factor as much as it is the human factor.
I always tell my son bricklaying is the way to go.
I can respect teachersphelan said:
But they are totally overpaid for what they do.
A highschool teacher in York Region makes about 76 K a year.
Now given that they only work 10 months of the year, (actually 9, but most of us working stiffs get 3 weeks off a year, so we will say 10 months.)
76 x 12/10 = $91,200.00
Given that they only teach for 3.75 hours a day.
That's like making 182,400.00 per year.
Yes, they are vastly overpaid.
Add in benefits galore, a great pension, 20 sick days CUMULATIVE a year.
Oh, you can sing and dance about prep time, etc. etc. but I don't see it. The teachers that live on my street are the last to leave in the morning, and the first ones home. They never work long hours, and they never ever (are you crazy) work weekends (unless they are going on a school trip to Europe (for free)).
Try working 60 hours a week every week, or more.
Try working at least half your weekends every year (at least one day)
Try working 32 hours straight to meet a deadline.
Try having 5 sick days noncumulative a year.
Try having NO pension.
Then we'll talk.
I'd love to debate this more, but I have to go to the office (seriously) and work (on a Sunday). I will have to be careful not to bump into all the teachers heading into work I am sure.
LOL
,mind you I get 6 sick days noncumulative a year. lolOne thing i have to admit is that the teachers at two of the schools i deal with are there at 7 am and oftem leave well after 5. It is not expected of them but they do it. One of the IT Directors i deal with came from the public system and he is amazed at how different the teachers he deals with in the private school system are compared to the public.
Independet School teachers parking lot has about 30 cars in it at 7 am.
Public a piece of tissue blows through the empty parking lot until 8 ish.
Independent school parking lot at 4 still has 30 or so cars in it.
Public system the tissue and tumbleweeds come blowing through.
Independet School teachers parking lot has about 30 cars in it at 7 am.
Public a piece of tissue blows through the empty parking lot until 8 ish.
Independent school parking lot at 4 still has 30 or so cars in it.
Public system the tissue and tumbleweeds come blowing through.
Yep, though they make welll over six figures, doctors have to pay off huge student loans. Then they have years of internship at almost no pay, then there's the insurance, staff costs, etc... In the end they end up ok, but certainly not overpaid.
By the way, the good teachers who really care and give 100% are underpaid. Those who just punch in and punch out and hate their jobs are being overpaid. That's how I look at it.
By the way, the good teachers who really care and give 100% are underpaid. Those who just punch in and punch out and hate their jobs are being overpaid. That's how I look at it.
Oh come on now. 76K is not the entry level salary of a teacher or even the average pay for a teacher in York region. And even if it was, 76K is NOT "like making $182,400 per year" no matter what kind of mathematical hocus pocus you try and dazzle us with. And just because you lack the capacity to understand not only the importance of moulding the youth of our society but also the hard work and dedication involved, doesn't mean they don't earn their keep. Contrary to what you say, it doesn't sound like you have any respect for teachers at all.james t kirk said:
I don't know what kind of work you do, but if you are describing your work conditions accurately, you do indeed work hard. Interestingly, you do not mention what you are paid for this. If in fact you do not enjoy the conditions of your current work (and it sounds like you don't), I would encourage you to seek other opportunities as it looks to me like you lead a one dimensional life. Is this what you would wish on teachers and everyone else? There have been some interesting points of view expressed in this thread, and I am glad to see many sticking up for others that are being well compensated for their labour. I find it difficult to understand why some people would so vigorously deny others dignified work, fair compensation and reasonable work hours that allow the pursuit of other equally meaningful things like family, community and personal recreation. Good luck in finding balance in your life.james t kirk said:
I dont really think that how much you make should reflect the job that you do. Canadians each year are becoming poorer and poorer. Less and less young people are represented by a union meaning that starting wages for young people out of school or for those who begin work right away are lower. The fact is regardless of the job if a person can make a good salary than they should and it is a great thing. I find it humorous that people always compare salaries to teachers, I am not sure why that is. I am not a teacher but they are always the bench mark for comparison. Why dont we ever compare lawyers (who defend dirt as an example) that prey off the backs of normal citizens. Or doctors who are always complaining about how much they make. Here we have a group of people subsidized by the government being paid very well offering poor service, yet why not compare their salaries. Or even the government officials, federal, provincial, municipal who do little work for extremely high salaries and perks. People need to get off the average canadian back and maybe start looking at those who are making too much. You know the average home price in TO is like 400K and in Vancouver it is 430K. The Average!!!! So even if someone is making 52K a year, how well are they really doing. Average citizens should make as much as they can to make it through this circus of life.
76k a year if they have a master's degree in whatever their teachable is. They top out in mid 60s if they only have a BA or BS in their teachable. Teachers might have the summer off, but the majority of them do not take the summer off but instead go through more and more courses (I know many of them that do this) Not only that, new schools are opening with year round schooling, so I wouldn't be so judgemental.
Teachers work regular day hours, not 3.75 hours a day.
The teachers I know are always the first to leave and usually the last ones home (I work from home so I know), so I don't know what the hell your talking about in that dept. And free vacation? Ha, I don't think so...
Oh and one thing, I do work 60+ hours a week and on weekends too, no pension either as I'm indy employed, I can take as many sick days as I want because I'm indy employed but it would hurt business so I don't, and I've been worked to death for deadlines as well, you get used to it because it is a deadline and you have to meet it.
Teachers in general have to put up with a lot of crap from society and from some teens these days. How would you like to have a crazy teen pull a handgun or bat on you while your just walking back to your car? Or pull a columbine crap or say that they want to blackmail you or something. That's a lot of shit you dont' see at the office, sure there's inter office backstabbing and politics, but physical violence? I'd love to see an angry co-worker weilding his pencil sharpener like a mace coming at you for that last email you sent him lol
So I really don't know where your coming from with all this hate for teachers...sheesh lighten up dude and take it easy.
--Peace.
Teachers work regular day hours, not 3.75 hours a day.
The teachers I know are always the first to leave and usually the last ones home (I work from home so I know), so I don't know what the hell your talking about in that dept. And free vacation? Ha, I don't think so...
Oh and one thing, I do work 60+ hours a week and on weekends too, no pension either as I'm indy employed, I can take as many sick days as I want because I'm indy employed but it would hurt business so I don't, and I've been worked to death for deadlines as well, you get used to it because it is a deadline and you have to meet it.
Teachers in general have to put up with a lot of crap from society and from some teens these days. How would you like to have a crazy teen pull a handgun or bat on you while your just walking back to your car? Or pull a columbine crap or say that they want to blackmail you or something. That's a lot of shit you dont' see at the office, sure there's inter office backstabbing and politics, but physical violence? I'd love to see an angry co-worker weilding his pencil sharpener like a mace coming at you for that last email you sent him lol
So I really don't know where your coming from with all this hate for teachers...sheesh lighten up dude and take it easy.
--Peace.
james t kirk said:
I have to jump in here.Questor said:
What Ontario teachers fail to remember is that we all went through the system. Teachers in Ontario generally aren't worth the money they are paid. Cut the crap about devotion to education, etc... Most of the people I knew that went the Education route in university weren't the brightest stars in the sky.
No one is denying anyone anything. What the public/people are doing is critiquing the performance of the teachers. You know - grades?
Regarding James T Kirks statement.
Teachers don't work only 3.75 hours a day. That's like saying the only work a lawyer does is the time spent in court. If that were the case lawyers would be cheap to hire but you have to pay them for all the work leading up to stepping into court. similarly a surgeon is not paid purely for the time spent with a scapel in hand.
Heck that's like saying a basketball player on works for 48 minutes or less depending on the minutes that they play in the game. This totally ignores all the time spent training/practicing before the game.
75k is what a teacher with enough courses in their area of expertise who has taken extra courses (paid from their own pocket) and has taught for 10 years.
This summer I plan on taking some courses and many other teachers do the same. You have to do this if you want to advance your career or open up more options for the future (for example becoming a principal).
A first year teacher is making in around 35 k range could be a few thousand more or less depending on their eduction.
I will be the first to say that 75 k is an excellent amount of money. But there is a significant number of people who drop out of the profession well before reaching this point. IF the job is so great and so easy then how do we explain the people who drop out before maxing out their salary?
If your job is so bad and teaching is so great then why don't you all become teachers? I mean people incorrectly believe that its easy to get into teachers college, that its easy to get a job after teacher's college and that the job itself is easy.
If your job is better than teaching then what are you complaining for?
What's stopping all these people from becoming teachers? 8 months of teacher's college for $5000. Sounds like a pretty good investment if the job is so great.
The reality is the you need reasonably good marks (at least a B average) and you need to have taken enough courses in the areas that you want to teach.
After leaving teacher's college it may take a while to find a job depending on your what subjects you are qualified to teach. History, English, Geography, Bio are the hardest jobs to find since they are the most common teachables.
Physics is far and away the most rare teachable and thus the best for job prospects. It is impossible for a first year teacher to work only 3.75 hours, unless they steal someone's lessons, do no marking, make no phone calls to parents and donate no time to extracurricular activities. You won't keep your job for long doing that seeing as no teacher would allow a rookie to leach off of them like that and in the first 2 years of teaching it is very easy to lose your job (since it is considered a probationary period).
While we are not technically paid for extracurricular activities and nor are we technically expected to participate in them. But at some point in the job interview you will be asked if you have any interest in them.
I really wish the teacher bashing would stop or at the very least all teacher bashers should include their profession in their message so that at least a rebutal can be made. At the end of the day I really don't understand why people do this, improve your situation and don't worry about other people's problems.
Teachers don't work only 3.75 hours a day. That's like saying the only work a lawyer does is the time spent in court. If that were the case lawyers would be cheap to hire but you have to pay them for all the work leading up to stepping into court. similarly a surgeon is not paid purely for the time spent with a scapel in hand.
Heck that's like saying a basketball player on works for 48 minutes or less depending on the minutes that they play in the game. This totally ignores all the time spent training/practicing before the game.
75k is what a teacher with enough courses in their area of expertise who has taken extra courses (paid from their own pocket) and has taught for 10 years.
This summer I plan on taking some courses and many other teachers do the same. You have to do this if you want to advance your career or open up more options for the future (for example becoming a principal).
A first year teacher is making in around 35 k range could be a few thousand more or less depending on their eduction.
I will be the first to say that 75 k is an excellent amount of money. But there is a significant number of people who drop out of the profession well before reaching this point. IF the job is so great and so easy then how do we explain the people who drop out before maxing out their salary?
If your job is so bad and teaching is so great then why don't you all become teachers? I mean people incorrectly believe that its easy to get into teachers college, that its easy to get a job after teacher's college and that the job itself is easy.
If your job is better than teaching then what are you complaining for?
What's stopping all these people from becoming teachers? 8 months of teacher's college for $5000. Sounds like a pretty good investment if the job is so great.
The reality is the you need reasonably good marks (at least a B average) and you need to have taken enough courses in the areas that you want to teach.
After leaving teacher's college it may take a while to find a job depending on your what subjects you are qualified to teach. History, English, Geography, Bio are the hardest jobs to find since they are the most common teachables.
Physics is far and away the most rare teachable and thus the best for job prospects. It is impossible for a first year teacher to work only 3.75 hours, unless they steal someone's lessons, do no marking, make no phone calls to parents and donate no time to extracurricular activities. You won't keep your job for long doing that seeing as no teacher would allow a rookie to leach off of them like that and in the first 2 years of teaching it is very easy to lose your job (since it is considered a probationary period).
While we are not technically paid for extracurricular activities and nor are we technically expected to participate in them. But at some point in the job interview you will be asked if you have any interest in them.
I really wish the teacher bashing would stop or at the very least all teacher bashers should include their profession in their message so that at least a rebutal can be made. At the end of the day I really don't understand why people do this, improve your situation and don't worry about other people's problems.
