Salary survey of occupations in Toronto

[frankcastle]

To canucklehead,

The whole parking lot thing is unfair I think it varies from school to school.
Also, don't forget that most take work home with them so whether or not their car is in the parking lot doesn't mean that work has ended.

Now you mentioned how private schools have better resources but the same problems still exist but I think you're looking at it wrong.

To JTK,

How would you know if someone is the last to leave? How do you know they are not doing work when they get home?

Let's not forget that most jobs start later than school (i.e. all the 9 to 5ers) and the reason that a lot of people have to leave earlier may have to do with a longer commute. Teaching being a stable job and school boards being of reasonable size allows teachers to move and stay close to work.

Make your life better instead of wishing other's were worse.

 

[frankcastle]

As for violence at school its not as bad as phelan makes it sound but I will say this. The police come to school more often now than when I was a kid, it wasn't until teaching that I have witnessed students being arrested (and not for petty crimes). There are more fights at school now then when I was a kid.

So its worse than say 15 years ago but its not a veritable Columbine waiting to happen.

 

[strange1]

I deal with Teachers all day and at various private schools around Toronto.... I don't know if they are over paid or under paid. My only problem is that unlike terrorists, you cannot negotiate with Teachers....

Teachers at private schools are non-union contract workers. They can be let go if the school doesn't think they're working out.

 

[canucklehead]

Teachers at private schools are non-union contract workers. They can be let go if the school doesn't think they're working out.

Yes they are generally on a year to year contract until a full time position is offered, if it ever is. If they don't like you they tell you in March your contract is not being renewed. I was offered a full tim position to teach multimedia at one school and turned it down after i spent a year teaching a section on contract while i was laso doing their IT consulting.
I am just quoting from a IT Director that use to be from the York Catholic School board about the parking lots.
Again i know very well it varies from school to school and board to board. I know also about principals and moving from school to school and the back room deals surrounding lousy teachers and how they are kept in certain schools and traded.

 

[MarkII]

The TTC topic has already been done to death

You're also comparing apples to oranges since that $52K includes overtime. They could be working 80 hours a week for all you know.

Yes they might be working 80 hours a week...but not likely. The Union most likely wouldn't allow that. (an assumption without checking my facts)

But, consider this. If a Busness grad starts as an Asst Bank Manager and works for a salary of 35k to start and puts in unpaid overtime. Yes unpaid overtime does exist in the real world outside of publicly funded unions....is that Bus drivers salary correct?

One person went to school for years..the other most likely did not. (yes there are some very educated people driving buses.)

This is, to my mind wrong in our society. We want our kids to do better, live better and we shove EDUCATION down their throats, but if they want they can make better money in what amounts to common sense jobs. Higher learning isn't needed.

I believe in fair pay for the work completed, but 52K for a bus driver..sorry thats too much even if it was overtime.

Something is out of whack here. You get an education..and many of these kids are paying their own way with huge loans to pay off and they start for less money than unionized workers in far less complicated positions.

I know a lot of people may disagree with this stand...but I don't think it helps us as a society. When you stive to do better and end up earning less than those who chose for what ever reason to take an easier path make more...you end up with a lot of todays kids saying why bother? And they aren't wrong. Long run..we all suffer.

 

[james t kirk]

Let's get a few things straight.

Teachers DO make about 75 a year. One of my best friends is a teacher at York Region and he has shown me his T-4 from last year. He has a BA and is History teacher. He is not a principal, nor is he a dept. head.

I am not saying teachers are overpaid. I figure if that's what the system is willing to pay you, then you deserve it. What I am saying is that they have it made, yet so many of them never stop complaining. My friend will be the first to admit that he doesn't work that hard, although he does have his fair share of bullshit to put up with. (Don't we all.)

The figure of 3.75 hours is the actual class time that he has to put in. 3 classes a day x 75 minutes per class. He seldom if ever stays past 5 pm I can assure you.

They don't work long hours, they have great benefits, and their pay is decent and yet all teachers do (not all I admit) is cry and complain.

Me, I do NOT get paid for my overtime. I am on a salary. Most people in my profession work as hard as I do.

 

[frankcastle]

JTK,

75k is for a teacher who has been teaching for 10 years or more, they start at about 35 k.

I gues your friend doesn't do any marking and uses the same lessons each year?

For example, if I give my students a test each test takes 10 to 20 minutes to mark, so lets say 10 minutes on average. Multiply that by say 90 students. That's 15 hours of marking for a unit test. Leading up to the unit test will be 2 or three quizes, each quiz taking about 1 hr to mark. So lets say 2 quizes for 3 classes that's 6 more hours for that unit. Then add another 1.5 hours to record all the marks and another 1 hour to enter them into a computer. Our total is now at 23.5 hours per unit.

Don't forget about time for creating tests. If you recycle tests that will bite you in the butt since kids are smart and will trade notes. Also if you give the test to 2 classes on the same day you might want to switch up some of the questions because they will talk in between classes.

To create a lesson, it takes me about an hour per class so if you teach three different classes that can be up to 3 hours per night making lessons.

All you're proving is that your friend is using the same lessons and has been teaching for 10 or more years.

You really have no idea what you are talking about if you think the time spent in class is the only work a teacher does. If that's what your friend does he is either lying because he has to mark tests or he is doing a seriously half assed job. All the teachers I work with take work home unless they have a position where they don't teach 3 classes a day. I really can't see everyone in the office lying to each other about how much work they are taking home. considering we all share the same job we'd know if someone was BSing us.

Thank your friend for perpetuating the stereotype.

BTW the reason I'm up late and not in bed already is that I had to finish some work for tomorrow and terb is usually an entertaining diversion before bed.

 

[frankcastle]

23 hours marking and recording per unit + 27 hours making lessons for the unit + 6 hours making tests and quizes for the unit = 56 hours over a two week period.

This is assuming a person is teaching 3 different courses for the first time.
Your friend is also not factoring in things like lunch duty, hall duty, detention room duty and covering for absent teachers during our prep period.

Also, this doesn't include time spent giving extra help during lunch or after school. Or making phone calls to parents. Or making the report cards. Or coaching.

Of course the planning time decreases with experience but imagine a first year teacher.

So this is why I think the 3.75 hours is off target.

Hell lets look at it another way. Many people have to make presentations at work, imagine you had to make 3 presentations a day 5 days a week. you can imagine that a lot of work goes into it.

I'm not complaining or whining just stating that you are overlooking a lot of things and that your friend is a bad example or not telling the full story.

 

[train]

JTK,



All you're proving is that your friend is using the same lessons and has been teaching for 10 or more years.



Thank your friend for perpetuating the stereotype.

.

Isn't 10 years roughly the average experience level in Ontario ?

After that period you can't tell me that it takes one hour of prep time for one hour of class time . If it does then that person shouldn't be teaching 'cause he/she isn't exactly a "quick learner" .

 

[frankcastle]

No a teacher who has worked for 10 years does not need as much prep time. But certainly for the first few years. But it also depends for example in math there are 14 or 15 different courses. And if you also teach say science that's another 14 or 15 courses probably more. Given that math/science is a very common teaching combo one could teach for quite sometime before having done all the courses.

As for the number of years most teachers have taught I can't say. But at some schools by looking on the seniority list over 66% have 5 years of less teaching experience, 33% have less than 3 years experience. Then there are other schools at the other extreme where most teachers have 8 or more years teaching. In the next few years with all the retirements the face of teaching will change quite a bit, with the majority of the staff being under 10 years experience.

 

[Meister]

I don't mind teachers getting paid well if they can teach. However, more often than not the kids graduate after 12 years of school without being able to put together a half decent sentence let alone spelling it correctly. Then ask them to give you the average of three numbers and you get a blank stare.

But, ask them what's bad for the environment or why we should learn about buddhism and they will be able to give you a whole list of things.

No wonder why the rest of the world is kicking our asses in education.

 

[swordnshield]

TTC driver qualifications include:

1. Solid job history - 6+ years on their last employment. so anyone who is not currently employed in a long term position, or has gone through a recent bad patch of unemployment need not apply.
2. Perfect driving record. No infractions, accidents, insurance claims, late or missed auto insurance payments, problems related to so much as a missed payment. Clean abstract and 7 star rating only.
3. Available for split shift training. You get paid for 8 hours work during training and the first six or seven years of independant driving but your schedule commits you to be available for 12-13 hour stretches.
4. Clean credit history.

They dont tell you this on the application but they investigate you like you're a suspected terrorist. If you pass inspection you are a rare commodity indeed and probably a stable enough individual that you don't need the TTC job as much as you want it more than the many other opportunities that are open to you.

Getting the job is easy. Keeping it is hard. The evaluation procedures depend on how well you keep to the schedule, how accuratel you enforce fare collection, avoid all conflict and complaints, maintain your vehicle, uniform, and self. You are proclaimed an "ambassador" of the city and are constantly challenged with people some of whom behave in public in a manner that would likely get you banned from Terb.

If you manage to make it through the application, training, and maintain the strict standards you are clearly worth the 52K.

Not to make enemies as a new poster, however, your first point on the years previously with employer, not accurate. As a former transit operator, and a strong union man, I can say that we had school bus drivers with 2 years experience hired. The second point about insurance, the TTC does not care if you have been late for your payment. You are covered under the fleet policy, the bus is not insured in your name. They do however care that you have been insured, preferably under another commercial policy.Your point about the split shifts is accurate and let me tell you that is brutal. I did it for a few years and finally said fuck that. A clean credit history is not neccessary, however if you have a really bad history, they tend to not trust you with money, and you might as well look for a job driving a rickshaw. The Operators that stay there deserve alot of respect IMHO. They are well worth the money.....OK, i'm biased, they have to put up with escaped mental patients, alcoholics, crying babies, dear lord, get that kid off my bus, recent sp clients that got really low mileage b4 they got on the bus, OMG, they are the worst! They get berated for being 2 minutes late on route by passengers. Finally, unless you spend alot of time in your off hours at the gym, you quickly turn into a walking donut head, and trust me, if you have ever seen a fat ttc driver taking off his work short in the locker room, you'd run for the nearest exit. In comparison to teachers who get summers off, work less hours, oh and at least ttc guys are helpful, as a parent try talking to a teacher. You think they forget you are an adult and too old to be talked down too. Anyway, i'm ranting and all I really wanted to do was say Hi Gang!!! I'm new here.

 

[stinkynuts]

Welcome to the board, and thanks for sharing your knowledge about the ttc system.

 

[supersonicboy]

my friends 3 of them are teachers
and they all complain about their jobs

but i do want to get into teaching

good security
good time off

 

[blopar]

With sensitivity (and fine grammar and punctuation) like that...

my friends 3 of them are teachers
and they all complain about their jobs

but i do want to get into teaching

good security
good time off

Nothing like going into teaching for all of the right reasons.

Who cares about actually wanting to "teach" others, assist in shaping the minds of our youth, etc?

Geesh.

 

[phelan]

lol enough of the teacher bashing on this thread guys, there's another thread to take it too.

 

[red]

lol enough of the teacher bashing on this thread guys, there's another thread to take it too.

sounds like one of them long haired pot smoking teacher types

 

[Svend]

Is this the right thread to discuss those assholes in the corrugated box industry?

 

[swordnshield]

Welcome to the board, and thanks for sharing your knowledge about the ttc system.

Thank you for the warm.........I mean, stinky welcome, dude they gots medicine for that.lol

 

[phelan]

sounds like one of them long haired pot smoking teacher types

lol far from it