Maybe - but I sure as hell wouldn't risk my P&L by taking that chance. If I found out about 1 or 2 incidents - I might give a pass (and a warning). 4 times? Nope. I've also had 2 office flings - so you can label me a hypocrite if you want. First was when I was a rookie, with another Canadian who was in NY during the same period (different department and neither of us was in a position of power). Second, I ended up married (now almost divorced) - again we were in totally different areas (different offices too). So yeah, work is where a lot of people find romance - but don't mix it with your duties because one golden rule for guys is that sometimes your little head does the thinking. If you let that happen in an area where you're supposed to be in charge - the wrong head is calling the shots.
So, am I a Sexual Harasser?
- Thread starter kkelso
- Start date
Its common to hear this from women. Men have been trained to avoid approaching women because the risk of offending or being called out as something they're not is too much of a hassle. If a female doesn't feel like getting complimented on any particular day you could be an Adonis and she has the ability to embarrass you.My female friends all complain that men don't approach them and are no longer aggressive. Wonder why.
It's like going out with a woman on a date (I mean hookup because nobody dates anymore) over coffee. The less talking you do, the greater your chances of getting laid. The more you talk, the greater the chances that she will be disgusted by some trivial opinion- what tv shows you like, your political view on a topic, what sports you watch, etc - and say to herself, "I could never sleep with a guy that prefers Shreddies over Cheerios ewwww". Just be cool yet agreeable. She likes cheerios...well isn't that coincidence, you love cheerios too.
It's obviously a great window into whom not to get into a serious relationship with (up to and including marriage), because people don't change.
The high stepford standards for male behaviour is strictly a Canada/US/western phenomenon. When the females here travel to the Third World on vacation to get fucked, they love the aggression of the native male populations in those countries- the very behaviours that would get men here socially castrated. While on vacation all of a sudden normal male behaviour is seen as sexy and exotic just because they're in a different country and the dudes speak broken English. Haha!
And what on earth does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread?Its common to hear this from women. Men have been trained to avoid approaching women because the risk of offending or being called out as something they're not is too much of a hassle. If a female doesn't feel like getting complimented on any particular day you could be an Adonis and she has the ability to embarrass you.
It's like going out with a woman on a date (I mean hookup because nobody dates anymore) over coffee. The less talking you do, the greater your chances of getting laid. The more you talk, the greater the chances that she will be disgusted by some trivial opinion- what tv shows you like, your political view on a topic, what sports you watch, etc - and say to herself, "I could never sleep with a guy that prefers Shreddies over Cheerios ewwww". Just be cool yet agreeable. She likes cheerios...well isn't that coincidence, you love cheerios too.
It's obviously a great window into whom not to get into a serious relationship with (up to and including marriage), because people don't change.
Was just adding to another poster's input quoted above.And what on earth does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread?
The pendulum has swung from one side to the other. It's gone from guys being overly aggressive and sexually harassing most women and getting away with it to the opposite where men are scared to do anything for fear of a negative reaction and being labelled (unfairly) a harasser.yeah as many people said whether you're a sexual harasser or not will really come down to what the accusations are on the other side. it's so wishy-washy now; i hate it. changing it from "no means no" to "yes means yes" is the biggest problem IMO. women should be taught to speak up and voice their actual desires instead of remaining passive and putting the onus on the men to guess what's going on in her head. half or more of the accounts coming out now were like, "yeah he did this to me and i didn't like it but i didn't say no either". you might have seen all those encounters as perfectly consensual in your mind but at the end of the day, it's always going to be one person's word against another's. and with four other women who may or may not be pissed at you or want to get back at you, especially the one you didn't hire, they may even join forces to bring you down.
right now the narrative is more like it doesn't even matter if they were consensual agreements at the time - as long as you had any kind of position of power over them, you're basically exploiting that power. the premise just looks bad from the get-go.
i personally don't think you did anything wrong if everything you wrote was true and they all seemed to be into it at the time. but what i think and what the general public consensus is now thanks to modern feminism saturating itself into mainstream press and workplace policies, and now even the criminal code with the new proposed changes (forcing the accused to disclose any communications he might have had with the complainant), has greatly diverged. i've honestly never felt so privileged to be a woman.
I do not think positive consent is the problem - I think that's actually a fair requirement and places more onus on the guy - its easy to do something and continue doing it because a woman didn't say "no". It's way different when a "yes" is needed and places more onus on the man who in most situations has the power.
It's a catch 22 which sucks.The pendulum has swung from one side to the other. It's gone from guys being overly aggressive and sexually harassing most women and getting away with it to the opposite where men are scared to do anything for fear of a negative reaction and being labelled (unfairly) a harasser.
I do not think positive consent is the problem - I think that's actually a fair requirement and places more onus on the guy - its easy to do something and continue doing it because a woman didn't say "no". It's way different when a "yes" is needed and places more onus on the man who in most situations has the power.
I agree with Dawn that women need to start speaking up, but that is not what we are taught. At least not when I was younger. I have taught that to my daughter, but it is going to take a couple of generations to get there as a society. We are just starting to get to an era where women celetrabting sexuallity is acceptable, but let's real - we have a long way to go. The LGTB comminuty has more acceptance of people's sexuality then a straight women who just loves sex. She is still a slut, whore, etc. She gets a name and every guy thinks he should be getting lucky with her. To the point that some would not accept no for an answer and would push and push until she finally gave in. She doesn't feel raped, but she felt aggressive pressure and felt it "easier to just suck his dick and be done with it." Truth story becasue it just happened to a highly sexually active freind of mine 3 weeks ago.
Until the day that women can fully open up their sexuality, freely without judgment, you are going to have this conundrum.
Women are going to have regret sex because of the slut label.
Women are not going to stand up to predatory or aggressive behaviour out of fear.
Women are going to confuse behaviours as passes on them and feel sexually harassed.
Women are going to feel they need to submit to a person of higher authority/power.
You see now that Hollywood is going crazy. Richard Dreyfuss' son was allegedly sexually assaulted by Kevin Spacey and because he spoke out about it, another woman is now coming forward and accusing Dreyfuss of sexual harassment by exposing himself. He spoke up for his son, and the woman is basically saying "Hey you are no better asshole." The circle is just going to keep going around and around. The problem is the accusations mostly happen back in the 80s, early 90s. I am not excusing them but what we, as a society, were taught back then needs to be looked at. Not to excuse the behaviour but to grow from the expereinces. To learn from them and move forward.
Yes - Women need to learn to use their voice
Yes - Men need to learn to listen to that voice.
It should really stop there, but it can't. [Caveat = the below does apply to women as well, but you just don't see it happening as often from women]
Men need to sometimes double check and get a "yes" instead of relying on not hearing a "no." Men have to back away from the overly drunk girl. Men have to stay away from women at work, especially if they work under them.
Society needs to allow women out of the "kitchen", out of the "mama" title, out of the "slut" category and let them into the bedroom without judgment.
I am a slut and whore because I accept money in exchange for sex during my dates with clients. Yet, I am not as much of a slut for simply dating a couple of guys with no commitment. What is the difference really? The money? The money part makes me a slut? It's fucked up idealogy if you ask me.
Society plays a big role here and instead of attacking every guy who fucked up in the 80s, we need to focus our attention on uplifting the sexuality of women in general. Once that is done, most of this catch 22 stuff will disappear.
Sadly, if the Ghomeshi trail is an indication of where we are at as a society, we have a hell of a long road ahead. I fear the zombie apocalypse might happen first.
Yes it's a catch 22 - obviously the ideal is in the middle. A man can feel ok with expressing interest without fear of being labelled a harasser (or worse). A woman can accept or reject an expression of interest without feeling the pressure to acquiesce for fear of losing her job.It's a catch 22 which sucks.
I agree with Dawn that women need to start speaking up, but that is not what we are taught. At least not when I was younger. I have taught that to my daughter, but it is going to take a couple of generations to get there as a society. We are just starting to get to an era where women celetrabting sexuallity is acceptable, but let's real - we have a long way to go. The LGTB comminuty has more acceptance of people's sexuality then a straight women who just loves sex. She is still a slut, whore, etc. She gets a name and every guy thinks he should be getting lucky with her. To the point that some would not accept no for an answer and would push and push until she finally gave in. She doesn't feel raped, but she felt aggressive pressure and felt it "easier to just suck his dick and be done with it." Truth story becasue it just happened to a highly sexually active freind of mine 3 weeks ago.
Until the day that women can fully open up their sexuality, freely without judgment, you are going to have this conundrum.
Women are going to have regret sex because of the slut label.
Women are not going to stand up to predatory or aggressive behaviour out of fear.
Women are going to confuse behaviours as passes on them and feel sexually harassed.
Women are going to feel they need to submit to a person of higher authority/power.
You see now that Hollywood is going crazy. Richard Dreyfuss' son was allegedly sexually assaulted by Kevin Spacey and because he spoke out about it, another woman is now coming forward and accusing Dreyfuss of sexual harassment by exposing himself. He spoke up for his son, and the woman is basically saying "Hey you are no better asshole." The circle is just going to keep going around and around. The problem is the accusations mostly happen back in the 80s, early 90s. I am not excusing them but what we, as a society, were taught back then needs to be looked at. Not to excuse the behaviour but to grow from the expereinces. To learn from them and move forward.
Yes - Women need to learn to use their voice
Yes - Men need to learn to listen to that voice.
It should really stop there, but it can't. [Caveat = the below does apply to women as well, but you just don't see it happening as often from women]
Men need to sometimes double check and get a "yes" instead of relying on not hearing a "no." Men have to back away from the overly drunk girl. Men have to stay away from women at work, especially if they work under them.
Society needs to allow women out of the "kitchen", out of the "mama" title, out of the "slut" category and let them into the bedroom without judgment.
I am a slut and whore because I accept money in exchange for sex during my dates with clients. Yet, I am not as much of a slut for simply dating a couple of guys with no commitment. What is the difference really? The money? The money part makes me a slut? It's fucked up idealogy if you ask me.
Society plays a big role here and instead of attacking every guy who fucked up in the 80s, we need to focus our attention on uplifting the sexuality of women in general. Once that is done, most of this catch 22 stuff will disappear.
Sadly, if the Ghomeshi trail is an indication of where we are at as a society, we have a hell of a long road ahead. I fear the zombie apocalypse might happen first.
IMO, the slut label has a few definitions. To some, it means sleeping around with many partners. To some, it means extremely sexually active within a relationship. To some it means an easy target because she "gives in" or "gives it up" quick. In the 1st case, there's a huge double standard as men would be praised for the same behavior. In the second case, it's a weird standard because I'm sure most if not all guys would happily enter into a relationship with a woman who felt this way. In the last case, she becomes a target for men.
Now, I feel sorry your friend went through what she went through because it alludes to rape. I don't know the circumstances but it's never a good thing if a woman cannot say "No" for some reason or the other. Again, that's why positive consent IMO is actually very good - a little harder to get a yes versus not hearing a no.
I think you have to start small and work your way up. It all starts with education (I'll take this moment to rant at the assholes who are upset with the updated sex ed curriculum - I'm not necessarily in favor of the execution but that stuff needs to be taught and taught young). Girls need to learn not to bully other girls about sex (e.g. posting naked pictures and slut-shaming). Girls need to learn that engaging in activities like sexting and sending nude pics is just STUPID and nothing good comes from it. Girls need to be told that having sex just to be accepted by her peers won't make things better - same thing with having sex with a bunch of guys (I'm talking when young).
You're suggestions of what men should/shouldn't do are bang on. Unfortunately, there's going to a decent percentage of men who go against that - I'd like to think it's an education/societal behavior that if corrected, wouldn't take place, but sadly I think that in most cases it's something internally wrong that takes over and it may be impossible to educate that behavior away.
I think you are fully correct. In each of the four cases that I mentioned I had explicit and positive consent. Given that I'm not sure how it could be viewed as harassment, but it clearly is.I do not think positive consent is the problem - I think that's actually a fair requirement and places more onus on the guy - its easy to do something and continue doing it because a woman didn't say "no". It's way different when a "yes" is needed and places more onus on the man who in most situations has the power.
KK
The difference is power/influence. I don't think you necessarily asserted your influence to get these ladies to sleep with you. However, the lines are blurred in a couple of cases because the lady, who may have initiated, may not have said no as things progressed (during an encounter or over the relationship) out of fear of reprisal. It's the same as a lady who's with a guy and feels she can't say no out of fear of bad reaction or violence. She may not say no, she may say yes. But she doesn't want to say yes, she can't say no. She does not want to have sex.I think you are fully correct. In each of the four cases that I mentioned I had explicit and positive consent. Given that I'm not sure how it could be viewed as harassment, but it clearly is.
KK
Just read some shocking news. A criminal lawyer wrote a commentary discussing Beverley MacLachlin's retirement and in a recent speech she discussed sexual assault convictions. I don't know if she mentioned this or he's reporting this himself but the article mentions 3 out of 1000 sexual assaults ends up with a conviction. 3! I'm not sure if this is 3/1000 reported crimes or 3/1000 incidents because many assaults go unreported or thanks to the "bright" cops protecting and serving us, a percentage get tossed as unfounded - i.e. the cop determines no real crime took place. All I know is that's a scary statistic.
So, taking this a step further, is there ANY level of consent that would allow me to sleep with a woman over whom I have any influence, without it being harassment?The difference is power/influence. I don't think you necessarily asserted your influence to get these ladies to sleep with you. However, the lines are blurred in a couple of cases because the lady, who may have initiated, may not have said no as things progressed (during an encounter or over the relationship) out of fear of reprisal. It's the same as a lady who's with a guy and feels she can't say no out of fear of bad reaction or violence. She may not say no, she may say yes. But she doesn't want to say yes, she can't say no. She does not want to have sex.
KK
Technically, no, there isn't. But it's technically only harassment if the other person feels it's harassment. If the subordinate was happy to engage in the relationship and did not feel any pressure to engage, they aren't going to feel harassed and they aren't going to complain. So then it becomes more a question of optics. You aren't going to look good if you are in a relationship with a subordinate. People will assume harassment or favoritism. If I remember, places I've worked said you needed to declare a relationship (but don't quote me on that). To me, the best course of action is to (1) consult HR to know what is allowed and what isn't and (2) Be open and communicative with the person and make sure they understand that they have a choice to consent and their job security is not ever a factor. Otherwise there is always a risk of the relationship backfiring.So, taking this a step further, is there ANY level of consent that would allow me to sleep with a woman over whom I have any influence, without it being harassment?
KK
I just read a Globe and Mail article talking about marital rape (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/lif...onceptions-about-maritalrape/article36801060/). A few sad points
1) Canada changed the law in 1983. Prior to that, a man did not need consent from his wife - consent only a factor for a non-marriage relationship
2) In a 2015 poll, 1/10 people didn't think you needed consent in a marriage.
3) In the same poll, in 2015, 97 percent understood the need to get consent for new partners or casual dates. WHO ARE THE 3% WHO DIDN'T UNDERSTAND?
