Teachers Taking "Sick Days" - Anyone want to defend this one?

[CTSblues]

after discussing with john larue (see above, he loves to call me an idiot) your considerate and respectful reply is a breath of fresh air


the public schools is not a good educational system for everyone

That is very true. Public schools are designed for students in the normal range. It is not for students at either tail.

You are preaching to the converted. I would like nothing better than a voucher for all services and the privatization of education, policing, medicine etc. I am certain the cost to the public would come down.

The negative, of course, is that it would put pressure, in turn on salaries of private firms, and round and around goes the downward spiral.

I agree with those who say there is no easy answer.

 

[DTECanada]

That is very true. Public schools are designed for students in the normal range.

Public schools do have different levels of the same subjects for students. However, when a teacher has to teach to 4 different levels it makes it extremely difficult to be able to effectively tailor lesson plans for each level. If a teacher teaches two subjects, say European History and Southeast Asian History for example, that amounts to eight different lesson plans. Add to that the different learning styles within each of those levels (i.e. visual learners, spacial learners, etc.) and it is a daunting task indeed. I would like to see a better method for lesson plan development, perhaps cooperation between lesson plan developers and educators.

As you noted, there are no easy answers.

 

[JohnLarue]

absolutely wrong

the rights of a child to a quality education is a human rights and legal issue if there ever was one

Every child in Ont has access to education

You want every child to have the choice of how that education is delivered
Special gay schools?
That is not practical either from a logistical or economic perspective.
What is next ?
Special Goth schools, Left handed Muslim or One-eyed Hindu schools


Bye the way, learn how space your sentences

anyways


what is wrong with the following idea

average cost of child in public school is 12k (according to you)

savings to the public schools if one child leaves is zero

however if thousands leave the system saves money

estimate this savings then

give this savings in vouchers to the child's parent if the child leaves the public school ( minus voucher administration costs )

prorate these vouchers to income

cost to the taxpayer for these vouchers is now zero

Lots
1. As you say thousand leave the system. Unless all leave from a school the public system still has run that school, however not it does not even have economies of scale
2. If one messed up kid in a small town decides he / she need to go to one of your queer schools , does he she need to leave their family and relocate or will you build a new school in that town ?
3. prorate vouchers to income? NO NO and NO some more. This equates the quality of an education to a parents income. Some kids will be shut out or worse drop out because Dad does not make enough
4. You say the cost to taxpayer is zero??? Where is the value of the $12K voucher coming from ?

these vouchers will at least subsidize alternative education giving access to private schools to more working people

you are just allocation the same $24B around trying to pay for a special interest which is important to you (gay schools)

the taxpayer is the students parent

the vouchers go to them and they decide where the child goes

besides, the monies have been bequeathed to the child's education, so they are the child's as long as they are used for education

all your joke will crate is an administrative boondoggle



once again u r wrong

because of their flexibility there are lots of ways private schools can be cheaper than public schools

in a lot of churchs there is a Montessori school in the basement

cost of school is rental of one room plus teacher

home schooling is even cheaper

etc, etc, etc

These fairy tales will not accommodate the 2 or 3 million students in the system
Please get real and think on a more practical level

the rich are investing where there is maximum profit

sometimes this is good for the working man, sometimes not

I realize that the richmans' investment are needed



I also understand under todays economic rules there is small flexibility in taxing the rich

but

your equations r irrelevant


because

what I am suggesting is a paradigm shift in capitalism

allowing new equations to be drafted

if such a paradigm shift cannot be found we are heading for a cliff

there are many very bright economists who agree with me, such as Stiglitz, but you can only see your view

few are searching for such a paradigm shift because our ideas are controlled by the rich

You do not understand the equations do you?
Please explain them if you do

Yet you dismiss them as irrelevant
They are extremely relevant and are the drivers for most capital budget decisions

As long as you dismiss their importance as irreverent, you will remain a frustrated crackpot who will be unable to sell your fantasies

 

[JohnLarue]

after discussing with john larue (see above, he loves to call me an idiot) your considerate and respectful reply is a breath of fresh air

I just call em as I see em

 

[FAST]

what I am suggesting is a paradigm shift in capitalism

allowing new equations to be drafted

Well,...I'm fantasizing about a Quantum Drive coupled with a Hyper Transport, and maybe some Mind Melding,...that should solve the education/economics problems.

FAST

 

[rhuarc29]

I have a solution. Lets give teachers 10 half-paid sick days a year that aren't bankable. Since they would only receive half a day's pay, it's incentive to go to work. Since they aren't bankable, it's an incentive to go to work. Win-win.

:biggrin1:

In all seriousness actually, I don't see anything wrong with that suggestion.

 

[Yoga Face]

Every child in Ont has access to education

It is up to the parent and child to decide what is a quality education for them.

If public schools are of true quality then only the truly alienated will leave.

Put your self in a gays position where he loses all self worth. Because he is so alienated he is not in an emotional position to learn, where is the quality education in that?

Gays are one of many examples.

You want every child to have the choice of how that education is delivered
Special gay schools?
That is not practical either from a logistical or economic perspective.
What is next ?
Special Goth schools, Left handed Muslim or One-eyed Hindu schools

Whatever the private system delivers is practical or they will not deliver it.

Lots
1. As you say thousand leave the system. Unless all leave from a school the public system still has run that school, however not it does not even have economies of scale

I am always repeating myself to you.

The child gets just what the system saves not the whole 12K . It may be 6K, or whatever, but now more people have access to alternative schools as more parents could throw in a some additional monies for private whereas they could not afford the whole tuition.

2. If one messed up kid in a small town decides he / she need to go to one of your queer schools , does he she need to leave their family and relocate or will you build a new school in that town ?

I will build nothing. The private enterprise will build it. If it builds nothing the child is no worse off.

3. prorate vouchers to income? NO NO and NO some more. This equates the quality of an education to a parents income. Some kids will be shut out or worse drop out because Dad does not make enough

How is anyone hurt by prorating vouchers? At the very least, the student can stay in the public school so they are no worse off.

You have to prorate vouchers or the rich, already in private, will demand vouchers making vouchers not viable .

4. You say the cost to taxpayer is zero??? Where is the value of the $12K voucher coming from ?

I am always repeating myself to you.

The child gets just what the system saves not the whole 12K . It may be 6K, or whatever, but now more people have access to alternative schools as more parents could throw in a some additional monies for private whereas they could not afford the whole tuition.

all your joke will crate is an administrative boondoggle

Additional administration is a small price for freedom.

Boondoggle seems way too strong of an adjective.

These fairy tales will not accommodate the 2 or 3 million students in the system

Most students who leave public will go to traditional private schools, I would think, as they do now. But, I also suspect most student will remain in the public school system if it remains competitive with private.

Vouchers have at least three purposes.

1 Force public schools to compete for vouchers.

2 Give alternative education to those who needs are not met in public schools. This may be only be a small minority. It would be very interesting to discover how many students would leave.

3 Create new learning concepts such as Montessori, Waldorf etc. The more private schools there are the more alternative ideas will develop as it seems the private schools are much better at advancing alternative concepts than the public system is.

The paradigm of cheaper alternative schools has been established in many ways. I will not list them as I have given several examples.

You do not understand the equations do you?
Please explain them if you do

Yet you dismiss them as irrelevant
They are extremely relevant and are the drivers for most capital budget decisions

As long as you dismiss their importance as irreverent, you will remain a frustrated crackpot who will be unable to sell your fantasies

As I said, a new paradigm is needed. I do not know what it will be but it will be forced upon us, if Stiglitz is correct, and we have genuine international depression leading to revolt against governments as they clawback workers wages and rights etc etc

I certainly hope this does not create more dictatorships or communism (they are the same thing in my books) but, as you said, you do not care what a nobel prize winner thinks.

 

[Yoga Face]

I just call em as I see em

I agree

u r being honest

keep responding and I will change my mind if I think u r correct


internet insults do not affect me

 

[Yoga Face]

Well,...I'm fantasizing about a Quantum Drive coupled with a Hyper Transport, and maybe some Mind Melding,...that should solve the education/economics problems.

FAST

quantum drive is a possibility by warping space (warp drive)

mind melting is fantasy


that our economic system was developed by the rich and powerful is reality

that the rich behave in self interest was demonstrated in the recent financial collapse

 

[CTSblues]

Public schools do have different levels of the same subjects for students. However, when a teacher has to teach to 4 different levels it makes it extremely difficult to be able to effectively tailor lesson plans for each level. If a teacher teaches two subjects, say European History and Southeast Asian History for example, that amounts to eight different lesson plans. Add to that the different learning styles within each of those levels (i.e. visual learners, spacial learners, etc.) and it is a daunting task indeed. I would like to see a better method for lesson plan development, perhaps cooperation between lesson plan developers and educators.

As you noted, there are no easy answers.

Would ability grouping help to streamline the problem? I do appreciate the perspective from the other side of the desk, btw.

 

[basketcase]

that is your opinion that public schools are "quality"

it is up to the parent and child to decide what is quality for them

if public schools are of true quality then no one will leave

u do not get it

put your self in a gays position where he loses all self worth

because they are so alienated they are not in an emotional position to learn

where is the quality in that?

gays r one of many examples





whatever the private system delivers is practical or they would not deliver it




i am always repeating myself to u

the child does not get 12K just what the system saves

it may be 6k or whatever but now more people have access to alternative schools as more parents could throw in a couple of k for private just not the whole tuition





I will build nothing

whatever the private enterprise comes up with

if it comes up with nothing the child is no worse off


how so?

at the very least they stay in the public school so they are no worse off

u have to prorate or the rich already in private will demand vouchers making them not viable


i am always repeating myself to u

the child does not get 12K just what the system saves

it may be 6k or whatever but now more people have access to alternative schools as more parents could throw in a couple of k for private just not the whole tuition











boondoggle seems way too strong of an adjective

it is the cost of freedom






most who leave will go to traditional private schools I would think as they do now in private schools

I also suspect most will stay in the public school system

but the paradigm of cheaper alternative schools has been established in many ways

I will not list them as I have given several examples



as I said a new paradigm is needed

I do not know what it will be but it will be forced upon us if Stiglitz is correct and we have genuine international depression then revolt against government clawbacks of workers rights etc etc

I certainly hope this does not create more dictatorships or communism (same thing in my books)

but

as u said


u do not care what a nobel prize winner thinks

I've made the effort to read your posts but could you please start using paragraphs. They make things so much more readable.


On topic, I've said it before. Vouchers are useless for small communities because of inaccessibility and big boards already offer all sorts of specialized education alternatives and supports.

 

[Yoga Face]

I've made the effort to read your posts but could you please start using paragraphs. They make things so much more readable.


On topic, I've said it before. Vouchers are useless for small communities because of inaccessibility and big boards already offer all sorts of specialized education alternatives and supports.

My keyboard misses strokes so that is why I use a stunted writing style. I will try to accommodate your request.

Vouchers are not useless in smaller communities because:

1 In some cases, the child can actually leave and go to a boarding school with the assist of vouchers.

2 Private schools can be very flexible in smaller communities in a way public schools cannot . One example of this is Montessori schools being established in homes, church basements, etc with only a few students.

3 Home schooling becomes a greater option as you can now hire a private teacher with the vouchers.



What is not available, in small communities, is the flexibility of the public schools to create alternative public schools. This leaves only big city students with an alternative public school. This creates a two tiered public school system.





Vouchers have at least three purposes.

1 Force public schools to compete for vouchers.

2 Give alternative education to those who needs are not met in public schools. This may be only be a small minority. It would be very interesting to discover how many students would leave.

3 Create new learning concepts such as Montessori, Waldorf etc. The more private schools there are the more alternative ideas will develop as it seems the private schools are much better at advancing alternative concepts than the public system is.





How is the clarity of my writing now?

 

[DTECanada]

Would ability grouping help to streamline the problem? I do appreciate the perspective from the other side of the desk, btw.

I think ability grouping of students can be advantageous, but I also think teachers should be assigned two ability groups rather than 3 or four as they are in some school systems. Some teachers could specialise in teaching the top learners and others assigned to teach the more challenged students. It takes different teaching styles, different lesson plans, and different depth of material to teach varying ability levels. It's rather like managing an MLB team, a AAA team, as well as a AA and A team in baseball. No manager could do that effectively. You have to teach highly intelligent children differently than you do average or challenged students. To have to juggle all different learning levels, as well as all the different learning styles, is unmanageable. Of course, this methodology applies primarily to 6th grade or higher.
Again, not a panacea, but an option.

 

[JohnLarue]

Yoga Face and the others promoting vouchers are in dreamland.
Barring a default, twenty years from Ont will still have a public education system which is structurally similar to the current one
The question is will we be able to afford it?
If teachers continue to receive 2% annual increases their salary will be $123K

Will the average taxpayers gross go up by 48.5% in that same period
I doubt it
However your taxes probably will and then some

 

[Yoga Face]

Yoga Face and the others promoting vouchers are in dreamland.

Perhaps, but you are far to dismissive of ideas other than your own.

A lot of very bright, educated and conservative thinkers agree with vouchers so you should not so easily dismiss it as being dreamland.

 

[therocket]

This is BS - the thread was about teacher's abusing sick days....now it is turning into a diatribe about creating lesson plans...most (uncommitted) teachers recycle their plans and tests year after year...byelection Aug 1st...any bets the teachers will be campaigning for the Fiberals

 

[FAST]

For the students

This is BS - the thread was about teacher's abusing sick days....now it is turning into a diatribe about creating lesson plans...most (uncommitted) teachers recycle their plans and tests year after year...byelection Aug 1st...any bets the teachers will be campaigning for the Fiberals

+1

On a side note,...the very union in question here is probably the main reason why the voucher system will NEVER happen.

If there was even a hint that this was in the works,...the very next contract, agreed to by the self serving school boards, would include a buy out clause , for any teacher who lost their job that could even remotely be attributed to the system, that would bankrupt the whole country, let alone a prov.
And,…you would have every fricken civil servant union disrupting the whole country in (illegal) support.

Not gona happen !!!

FAST

 

[JohnLarue]

I agree
A complete waste of oxygen
If those two nitwits want to debate the merits of something which will never happen, let them go to town
I will not waste another second on this voucher bullshit

 

[FAST]

Sounds like the same club

that our economic system was developed by the rich and powerful is reality

that the rich behave in self interest was demonstrated in the recent financial collapse

So let me get this straight,...one day long ago,...a bunch of guys got together and decided that they would "develop" a economic "system" that would make only them rich,...and everybody else poor !!!
Tell me,... just what is this mysterious brotherhood, with the secret ceremonies and rituals that have passed this down through the ages ???

And the "rich", what ever the hell that means,...wanted the "recent financial collapse" in the US to happen ???

Also,...the subject profession in discussion,...did/do not "behave in self interest was demonstrated" recently ???

FAST

 

[sturmgewehr44]

Toronto District School Board sick days up 22% as teachers no longer allowed to ‘bank’ time.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/25/tdsb-sick-days/



This is teachers giving the finger to the students, parents and the Liberal government. So much for it being all about the students. Once again, teachers setting a fine example for their students. The lesson for today is, screw the taxpayer!

The teachers today are despicable in there behaviour compared to the teachers they had growing up. A terrible example to society where everyone has no more honour in their own profession today.