THE PLOT THICKENS!!!! More Arrests!

[HaywoodJabloemy]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/01/20/4783432-sun.html

...Leaf through a variety of Toronto newspapers to the classifieds advertising exotic massage parlours. "Most" of these are likely linked to human trafficking rings, Shelley says.
...Asked why Toronto Police don't investigate every advertised massage parlour, Det.-Sgt. Mike Ervick of the 52 Division vice squad answered: "We don't have the resources"...

Most?! What a ridiculous load of bullshit!.. particularly from the cop, who must know better, but is dishonestly following the usual police party line of using every situation to lobby for more of our tax money. If they really believed there were hundreds of women being held prisoner in local MPs (most of them with some kind of city licence and even open advertising so their customers can find them), isn't it a little suspicious that the police mostly ignore them and make this such a low priority? If there really are hundreds of Toronto MPAs forced into sex slavery, what exactly are the more important policing matters occupying the force's resources?.. reaching their monthly quota of speeding and parking tickets?

And BTW, wouldn't one of those "variety of newspapers" be... The Toronto Sun?

 

[fuji]

Well, it depends on how you define "human trafficking".

Are you including every place that employs women whose status in Canada does not include the right to work? Every place that helped such women get to Canada? In that case it's a LOT of places, including many very reputable agencies. Of course all these women are entirely voluntary, and aren't being coerced in even the slightest way--they are violating immigration law of their own free will, choosing to work as escorts, and happy about it all.

Personally I don't have a big problem with that, it's the immigration law I think that should be changed. The sexual aspects are all consensual.

Where MY problem begins is with the rarer case of an agency that is using threats, intimidation, violence, etc., to co-erce or force women to work as prostitutes. At that point the sex is not consensual.

Non-consensual sex is often called rape.

I have a BIG problem with that, and I have a big problem with anyone who thinks they can engage in it without having any responsibility. If you suspect an escort is not working voluntarily you at that point know that you may be engaging in non-consensual sex and at that point you are committing rape. Most of the time customers obviously don't KNOW that it's non-consensual, but you have a moral and probably a legal obligation to make sure the woman you are about to have sex with consents. When you find that she doesn't, and that in effect she has been repeatedly raped over the past while, you are scum if you decide it's someone else's problem.

On the other hand, I do not feel you are scum if you find a woman has been happily working as a prostitute in violation of immigration law. If you help such a woman continue to violate immigration law, well, there's a problem there around respect for the rule of law, but not anything I'd get worked up about.

 

[loco2.0]

If it is the agency some have speculated that it is (since it's speculation I am not saying which one), it's worth noting that there are actual reviews for that agency posted on terb.

^^^ D U M B A S S ^^^^

Think buddy, think......the article says that the servers were seized....come on now just think a little bit...put on the spandex and hire a butler to help you unravel the mystery.

P.S. And for God's sake try not to double or triple post. Newsflash Fuji-Man: You can edit your posts, I know you have done so in the past.

P.P.S. Who the fuck made you moral police, I'd like to see your certificate of canonization please. "I don't see a problem with that, this, etc.." I don't judge if that, this, etc..." lol

 

[fuji]

Looks like someone's feeling a little guilty and throwing a tantrum.

What is your position here anyway, you are in favour of rape??? You figure you can have non-consenual sex with a woman and not have any responsibility? It's none of your business whether the woman you are having sex with consents?

Hard to imagine YOU being the moral police.

 

[loco2.0]

You really are a horrible detective....I don't feel guilty and not throwing a tantrum. However I feel annoyed that you are pursuing this matter as if you had just gotten an asshole expansion in jail, and want to erase the horrible act from earth. That's nice and admirable, but by bitching in cyber space.....that is where you and I see things differently.

Tell you what, if you are serious about this cause let me put up a website for you with the youtube video, info on how to help the girls, your contact info (at your discretion) etc.... so put up or shut the f*ck up on the forums. If you really care do something about it instead of just bitching, PM me and let me know.

P.S. Won't be free but to help out with the cause it will be as cheap as possible. Unless you can host the server, etc...

P.P.S. Do look up the word canonization as well to see how annoying I find your bullshit.

 

[fuji]

Answer the question dude, what is your position here? Do you figure that you have no responsibility to figure out whether the sex you're about to engage in is rape?

If you find a woman is being raped, and you're the only one to help, that it's none of your business?

Answer please.

 

[loco2.0]

Kid: My position is that of I don't need to brag or pass moral judgement on others. I let my actions speak louder than my words, if all you're interested in doing is having a discussion about the wrongs of sexual slavery then go get raped again, stfu, and cannonize your asshole after Leroy finishes with it.

I put an offer on the table to DO something, provide the content, tell me if you can host it and that's it. You're not doing this, so I guess who is the biggest pussy then? lol Fuck outta here kid..

 

[fuji]

Answer please.

 

[loco2.0]

Send info please.......

 

[fuji]

Dude, I too avoid passing moral judgement when two (or more!) adults get together in private and do whatever the fuck they want to do, so long as everyone is doing it of their own free will. Who am I to judge?

I draw a line, though, at the point where someone is not there of their own free will, where they are being forced into doing something they don't want to do. When it comes to sex, we call that rape.

I am more than willing to condemn rapists, sexual enslavers, and the like, same way I condemn murders, child abusers, and so on. What ties these things together is lack of consent.

How about you? Do you feel you have a moral/legal obligation to make sure the woman you are having sex with consents???

 

[loco2.0]

I am getting sick of your babbling. Although I have answered stated my position in the past. Now, if this is going to get me the info/content to make your site to help stop sexual slavery then I will say it in simple words:

I do not approve of sexual slavery.

You do not have a clue as to who is doing what and to whom when it comes to the EE underworld. Again I feel no need to "brag" about how I know these things, and it would simply be indiscreet to go into more details in a PUBLIC FORUM.

In your other cry for attention and moral praise...ergh....I mean your other thread... I stated that your methods were retarded (as are you), and gave a very specific reason as to why. However perhaps due to limited reading comprehension you proceeded to accuse me of being an apathetic, etc.... meanwhile you have no idea what I have done to help girls in the past, or what I do now, will do in the future....retarded much? I'd say so.

Answer my question then: who the fuck made you a saint? And if you are not going to start doing much more than just sit behind your keyboard and bitch about it, then I'm sorry son but you're just crying for attention and wasting time in cyber space. Go surf youtube or something instead.

If you require any further clarification of how I feel about you or this topic go and re-read my posts without your judgmental air of moral superiority. Get out of your spandex suit first, put together the content of the site, and let's start DOING something instead of just talking. Can it get any easier than that kid?! Do I make myself clear?

 

[fuji]

The method you are criticizing is pretty straight forward dude:

1. If there's doubt ask some probing questions
2. Explain options to SP, and be willing to explain them again if wanted (give phone #)
3. If there's enough doubt call crime stoppers

That's what you are objecting to.

 

[loco2.0]

You're pathetic...still talking...seriously buddy if you want to have the last word then so be it I stop posting as of right now. Fucking pussy learn to walk the walk rather than just talk the talk.

If by 6PM I don't have a PM from you with some content for your site then please do not fucking ever bitch about this topic. In the meanwhile I will see if I can get a mod to shut this thread down since clearly this is nothing more than entertainment and time wasting for you kiddo. Farewell and enjoy your last word since you are sure to post again but not send me the PM.

Grow some balls then grow up, but above all please try to shut the fuck up.

 

[fuji]

Dude I don't need your help to create a website. I also don't think that would help nearly so much because I doubt these women have any access to the net. A sticky on terb telling people what to do if they suspect and SP might be under duress would do a LOT more than some never visited website.

Telling me I don't have balls when you're the one too chickenshit to offer to help a distressed woman is pretty funny.

 

[Aardvark154]

According to this article:

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/01/16/4775751-sun.html

Whatever agency it was operated on an outcall only basis. According to the story when they are not out on a call they are pretty carefully watched.

Fuji although I agree with your larger point something about this story just doesn't make sense - perhaps due to press sensationalizing. The Sun says that the women were "kept in confinement. . . behind locked doors,” yet as I posted above (#4), a bare three and a half months after arriving one of these women is being so carefully watched that she is able to walk into a Toronto Police Station.

The Police keep talking about a major sex trafficking operation (let me plainly state that one woman being forced into the sex trade is one woman too many), yet further down the article you will see that the police spokesman admits that they believe they may discover at the most between five and ten women involved. What a textbook case of hyperbole describing 5 to 10 women in a city the size of Toronto as constituting a major sex trafficking operation!

 

[S.C. Joe]

I am starting to believe that the police are trying to use the few arrest--there has not even been a trial yet--to cast shame on all sex trade workers and clients!

Now they are claiming its a wide spread problem, yet the reason theres been just a few arrest so far is because " they don't have the resources"

Is that true or are they trying to start false rumors ?


This is a big deal because some of these young ladies might really start to believe they have been abused, when they have not. Its been proven how peoples minds can be trick. Not going to try to show it but its true-from suger pills to mirages. Just because somebody might think something does not always mean its true or happening.

In the newspapers its so one sided, the police can say anything and theres nobody speaking out for all the great escort companys who treat the ladies very good and fair.

 

[S.C. Joe]

Well maybe just one example how people can think something thats not true.

You tell 100 people say on a airplane a false story that one person had the killer bird flu and everybody has a chance of getting sick from that person. Its been proven many times that in the next few days 5, 10 maybe 15 of those people will start claiming they feel sick and must be coming down with that bird flu bug. I am sure theres a name for that but I am not a mind doctor.

This could start happening with some of these escorts. They start to hear how theres a wide spread "slavery" problem, with a 1000 or more escorts in Toronto, some of them may start thinking they are a victim too, when they have not been abused at all.

 

[fuji]

one of these women is being so carefully watched that she is able to walk into a Toronto Police Station.

Let's hope that it turns out not to be sexual slavery. I don't doubt that it has been somewhat sensationalized. However, I suspect there's going to be some grain of truth to the whole thing.

What I personally guess is most likely is that these women actually knew what they were getting into before coming to Canada but changed their minds about it when they got here, or after trying it for awhile. Instead of letting them go the organizers threatened them and/or their families with violence or maybe even used violence to force them to keep working and "pay off their debt".

That's still repulsive because it's still forcing someone into non-consensual sex, it still amounts to rape, and so on--but it doesn't make for as good a headline.

In reality though we'll all have to wait and see what happens. Who knows.

I guess I really have three points here in the even this case turns out to be overblown by even more than that:

1. It never hurts to tell someone what their choices are, if they are doing it voluntarily, happily, etc., then they'll keep on doing it--no real harm done.

2. It's such a grevious, disgusting crime if it does happen that it is worth taking a little extra care to make sure it never does happen here in Toronto, and a culture of concerned, helpful customers would make sure of that.

3. If we take up the role of upstanding concerned citizens that will help change the perception society has that this business is populated only by low lifes--I firmly believe that most customers and most SP's are perfectly reasonable, normal people, and the more we are seen to act that way the better.

What a textbook case of hyperbole describing 5 to 10 women in a city the size of Toronto as constituting a major sex trafficking operation!

Well, actually, if there are 5 to 10 women who are being forced into having sex against their will and/or beaten and/or confined then that IS quite a big case. Some serial rapists don't have that many victims.

 

[S.C. Joe]

Maybe they knew what they were going to be escorts but thought it be like NY city and make $500-$700 an hour and get all muti-hour dates with first going out to dinner or a show then head back to a 5 million dollar penthouse and hop in the water bed with a rich guy. After the sun comes up walk out with $2500 or more.

Then came Toronto with 1/2 hour incalls and they make maybe not even $100 per guy and theres 5-7 a day.

We can only guess. When you are young, sometimes you are surprise when things do not go just as plan.


Agian, if anybody does see a girl who looks like she may have been hit, slap, etc. Pick up your phone or go to a pay phone if you want to stay out of it and call crimestoppers. It will be looked in too I am sure now. She will denied it but maybe the police will check the company out anyways.

 

[fuji]

Agian, if anybody does see a girl who looks like she may have been hit, slap, etc. Pick up your phone or go to a pay phone if you want to stay out of it and call crimestoppers. It will be looked in too I am sure now. She will denied it but maybe the police will check the company out anyways.

Presumably these guys are smart enough not to send out girls with obvious bruises. It's also still rape and sexual slavery if she has merely been threatened with violence, or threatened with violence against her family, etc.

Put another way, if I put a gun to your head you will do whatever I tell you to do, but there will be no bruise.

I would also say that if you encounter a woman who seems to be in a bad situation that you should probably tell her what her true options are. She's probably been fed lies ("the police will arrest you", "you will be imprisoned then deported", etc), and the truth may set her free.