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The Reagan Era is Over

markvee

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Ron Paul on Ronald Reagan and Ronald Reagan on Ron Paul

From: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/press-re...brary-only-ron-paul-carries-the-reagan-mantle

SIMI VALLEY, CALIFORNIA – In 1976, Ron Paul was one of only four Republican Congressmen to endorse Ronald Reagan for President. In tonight’s debate at the Ronald Reagan Library, Congressman Paul once again showed that he is the candidate that stands for the conservative principles of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.

Asked if Ronald Reagan would endorse him for President today, Ron Paul responded that he couldn't know that for certain. But Dr. Paul went on to say that he had been an early leader in supporting Ronald Reagan's election in 1976, and that Reagan had in fact endorsed him and campaigned for his election to Congress in the past.

Of Dr. Paul, Ronald Reagan once said: “Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.”





Ronald Reagan on the Middle East.

Reagan described the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing as "the saddest day of my presidency, perhaps the saddest day of my life". Under the weight of public opinion against US military presence in Lebanon, Reagan withdrew the marines.

From: http://books.google.com/books?id=nx...ts=VDJ2NXMGlh&sig=jZ7PW_UF_zmTL0KtRxtR7EaYAXQ
Ron Paul uses this historical example at the debates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sraDwkAwqH4
At the most recent debate (with commentary by Stephen Colbert): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRD0u3iooL4




Ronald Reagan on the Gold Standard.

From: http://reason.com/blog/show/123377.html

From page 421 of Robert Novak's autobiography The Prince of Darkness:
I asked Reagan: "What ever happened to the gold standard? I thought you supported it."

"Well," the president began and then paused (a ploy he frequently used to collect his thoughts), "I still do support the gold standard, but--"

At that point, Reagan was interrupted by his chief of staff. "Now, Mr. President," said Don Regan, "we don't want to get bogged down talking about the gold standard."

"You see?" the president said to me, with palms uplifted in mock futility. "They just won't let me have my way."
 
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fuji

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Other Wanderer said:
The Soviet Union was broke well before 1979, as papers released after the fall of the Commie's show
That's absolutely true. However, papers released after the fall of the Commies weren't available to everyone at the time Reagan was elected. It's a matter of fact, not conjecture, that he was criticized by practically the entire political field--including elements of the Republican party--for abandoning the containment strategy.


Reagan had little or nothing to do with it ... the Soviets were broke well before he took power
Without the arms buildup, and without Reagan's strategy of persuading Saudi Arabia to increase oil production (cutting oil prices and harming the Soviets), they could have held on a lot longer. Lots of bankrupt countries do.

Eisenhower and Co. won the Cold War ... Reagan and his band of idiots just took a lot of credit.
Your argument would be more credible if that's also what people were saying at the time he launched those policies, instead of everyone being against them.
 

fuji

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WoodPeckr said:
the Reaganites at that point in time were dumbfounded about what was taking place
Reagan changed his strategy towards the Soviet Union when the whole glastnost thing happened. By then he'd been proved right and knew it. Not sure who you mean by "Reaganites", but long before the final distintigration the cold war had already been won, and everyone knew it by then.

Reagan's DEBT remains to this day unpaid with witless Dubya only adding to it more than Ronnie could ever imagine.... that is before Ronnie lost his mind.
That's true. The debt was partly how the US financed the confrontation that won the cold war, and it has not been paid off.
 

jwmorrice

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fuji said:
Without the arms buildup, and without Reagan's strategy of persuading Saudi Arabia to increase oil production (cutting oil prices and harming the Soviets), they could have held on a lot longer. Lots of bankrupt countries do.
Gee, were things really that cut and dried? I wonder. Here's an interesting article on the subject: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/reagrus.htm

February 1994

Reagan and the Russians


The Cold War ended despite President Reagan's arms buildup, not because of it--or so former President Gorbachev told the authors

by Richard Ned Lebow and Janice Gross Stein


Shortly after the Berlin Wall was torn down, prominent political leaders and commentators concluded that the U.S. military buildup under President Ronald Reagan had won the Cold War. "We were right to increase our defense budget," Vice President Dan Quayle announced. "Had we acted differently, the liberalization that we are seeking today throughout the Soviet bloc would most likely not be taking place." Even Tom Wicker, a New York Times columnist with impeccable liberal credentials, reluctantly conceded that the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) and the Reagan buildup "seemed to impress the Soviets as a challenge that they might not be able to meet."

Hanging tough paid off. Forty years of arms competition, so the argument goes, brought the Soviet economy to the brink of collapse. The Vatican's Secretary of State, Agostino Cardinal Casaroli, said, "Ronald Reagan obligated the Soviet Union to increase its military spending to the limits of insupportability." When the Soviet Union could no longer afford the competition, its leaders decided to end the Cold War. A modified version of this argument holds that the American military buildup simply worsened the Soviet economic quandary; it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Neither the strong nor the weak version of the proposition that American defense spending bankrupted the Soviet economy and forced an end to the Cold War is sustained by the evidence.

The Soviet Union's defense spending did not rise or fall in response to American military expenditures. Revised estimates by the Central Intelligence Agency indicate that Soviet expenditures on defense remained more or less constant throughout the 1980s. Neither the military buildup under Jimmy Carter and Reagan nor SDI had any real impact on gross spending levels in the USSR. At most SDI shifted the marginal allocation of defense rubles as some funds were allotted for developing countermeasures to ballistic defense.

If American defense spending had bankrupted the Soviet economy, forcing an end to the Cold War, Soviet defense spending should have declined as East-West relations improved. CIA estimates show that it remained relatively constant as a proportion of the Soviet gross national product during the 1980s, including Gorbachev's first four years in office. Soviet defense spending was not reduced until 1989 and did not decline nearly as rapidly as the overall economy.

To be sure, defense spending was an extraordinary burden on the Soviet economy. As early as the 1970s some officials warned Leonid Brezhnev that the economy would stagnate if the military continued to consume such a disproportionate share of resources. The General Secretary ignored their warnings, in large part because his authority depended on the support of a coalition in which defense and heavy industry were well represented. Brezhnev was also extraordinarily loyal to the Soviet military and fiercely proud of its performance. Soviet defense spending under Brezhnev and Gorbachev was primarily a response to internal political imperatives--to pressures from the Soviet version of the military-industrial complex. The Cold War and the high levels of American defense spending provided at most an opportunity for leaders of the Soviet military-industrial complex to justify their claims to preferential treatment. Even though the Cold War has ended and the United States is no longer considered a threat by the current Russian leadership, Russian defense spending now consumes roughly as great a percentage of GNP as it did in the Brezhnev years.

The Soviet economy was not the only economy burdened by very high levels of defense spending. Israel, Taiwan, and North and South Korea have allocated a disproportionate share of resources to defense without bankrupting their economies. Indeed, some of these economies have grown dramatically. A far more persuasive reason for the Soviet economic decline is the rigid "command economy" imposed by Stalin in the early 1930s. It did not reward individual or collective effort; it absolved Soviet producers from the discipline of the market; and it gave power to officials who could not be held accountable by consumers. Consequently much of the investment that went into the civilian sector of the economy was wasted. The command economy pre-dated the Cold War and was not a response to American military spending. The Soviet Union lost the Cold War, but it was not defeated by American defense spending.

Former Soviet officials insist that Gorbachev's decisions to withdraw Soviet forces from Afghanistan and to end the arms race were made despite the Reagan buildup and SDI. In 1983 Gorbachev, then the youngest member of the politburo, visited Canada and spent long hours in private conversation with Aleksandr Yakovlev, then the ambassador in Ottawa. The two men talked openly for the first time about the deep problems that the Soviet Union faced and the urgent need for change. To their mutual surprise they agreed on the folly of the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan and the necessity of ending the Cold War before it led to catastrophe for both superpowers. Both men hoped to reduce the burden of military spending in the USSR, and thus free resources for domestic reform and renewal.

By the time Gorbachev became General Secretary, in March of 1985, he was deeply committed to domestic reform and fundamental changes in Soviet foreign policy. "I, like many others," he observed recently, "knew that the USSR needed radical change. If I had not understood this, I would never have accepted the position of General Secretary." Within a month of assuming office he attempted to signal his interest in arms control to the United States by announcing a unilateral freeze on the deployment of Soviet intermediate-range missiles in Europe. The deployment of the SS-20, Yakovlev explains, was a "stupid and strange policy" that defied logical explanation. Yakovlev considered the deployment illogical and self-defeating before President Reagan announced SDI and the buildup of American military forces. He and Gorbachev were "united" on this issue.

Gorbachev felt free to make a series of proposals for deep cuts in his country's nuclear arsenal because he was confident that the United States would not attack the Soviet Union. In conversation with his military advisers he rejected any plans that were premised on war with the West. Since he saw no threat of attack by the United States, Gorbachev was not intimidated by the military programs of the Reagan Administration. "These were unnecessary and wasteful expenditures that we were not going to match," he told us. If both superpowers were to avoid the growing risk of accidental war, they had to make deep cuts in their strategic forces. "This was an imperative of the nuclear age."

Reagan's commitment to SDI made it more difficult for Gorbachev to persuade his officials that arms control was in the Soviet interest. Conservatives, some of the military leadership, and spokesmen for defense-related industries insisted that SDI was proof of America's hostile intentions. In a contentious politburo meeting called to discuss arms control, Soviet armed forces chief of staff Marshal Sergei Akhromeyev angrily warned that the Soviet people would not tolerate any weakening of Soviet defenses, according to Oleg Grinevsky, now Russia's ambassador to Sweden. Yakovlev insists that "Star Wars was exploited by hardliners to complicate Gorbachev's attempt to end the Cold War."

President Reagan continued to regard the Soviet Union as an "evil empire" and remained committed to his quest for a near-perfect ballistic-missile defense. To break the impasse, Gorbachev tried at the two leaders' summit meeting in Reykjavik to convince Reagan of his genuine interest in ending the arms race and restructuring their relationship on a collaborative basis. For the first time, the two men talked seriously about eliminating all their countries' ballistic missiles within ten years and significantly reducing their arsenals of nuclear weapons. Although the summit produced no agreement, Reagan became "human" and "likable" to Gorbachev and his advisers, and the President, convinced of Gorbachev's sincerity, began to modify his assessment of the Soviet Union and gradually became the leading dove of his Administration. The Reykjavik summit, as Gorbachev had hoped, began a process of mutual reassurance and accommodation. That process continued after an initially hesitant George Bush became a full-fledged partner.

The Carter-Reagan military buildup did not defeat the Soviet Union. On the contrary, it prolonged the Cold War. Gorbachev's determination to reform an economy crippled in part by defense spending urged by special interests, but far more by structural rigidities, fueled his persistent search for an accommodation with the West. That persistence, not SDI, ended the Cold War.
 

maxweber

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the "narcoleptic pinhead" rides again

fuji said:
You have a right to express unsupported opinions, but no-one is going to pay any attention.
Of course not. Reagan supporters don't pay any attention to supported opinions, nor to what the master himself called pesky things": facts. Reagan's triumph was the brain death of America.

MW
 

LancsLad

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Interesting title to your post there webbie. Since you voice your foolish little opines so infrequently I figured that the moniker narcoleptic pinhead rides again was a true moment of self reflection.:p



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fuji

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It's more than defense spending bankrupted the Soviets, it was the realization on the Soviet side that they could not match American defense spending.

During the period of containment the logic was that the two sides should be roughly matched, the famous "correlation of forces" theory along with "mutually assured destruction" was the foundation of the cold war detante.

Reagan's strategy was based in the realization that the Soviet system could not keep pace with the West because communism does not really work. He realized that by shifting defense buildup in the US into high gear that the US could achieve a convincing superiority over the Soviets.

The soviets, including Gorbachev, realized it too.

Once the US had established that it would eventually build a convincingly superior military, the Soviets came to the negotiating table prepared to bargain.

So did Reagan.

Reagan was a massive proponent of arms reduction signing many treaties with the soviets. That was the plan: Build up a convincing military superiority, and then bargain with it.

Reagan sent repeated notes, many of them hand written, to the Soviet leadership essentially all saying the same thing: An arms race is not a good idea, but if there is to be an arms race, we will win it.

Soviet leaders prior to Gorbachev ignored this message, but by Gorbachev's time the clearly superior capabilities of the US economy to produce weapons was increasingly evident, the US had, under Reagan, deployed a huge array of new technologies that the soviets could not match: M-X missles, stealth technology, work on SDI (hyped up though it was) and so on.

So Gorbachev was prepared to deal, and Reagain struck deals. Those deals were tantamount to US victory in the cold war.

The subsequent actual collapse of the USSR was irrelevant.
 

jwmorrice

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fuji said:
It's more than defense spending bankrupted the Soviets, it was the realization on the Soviet side that they could not match American defense spending.

During the period of containment the logic was that the two sides should be roughly matched, the famous "correlation of forces" theory along with "mutually assured destruction" was the foundation of the cold war detante.

Reagan's strategy was based in the realization that the Soviet system could not keep pace with the West because communism does not really work. He realized that by shifting defense buildup in the US into high gear that the US could achieve a convincing superiority over the Soviets.

The soviets, including Gorbachev, realized it too.

Once the US had established that it would eventually build a convincingly superior military, the Soviets came to the negotiating table prepared to bargain.

So did Reagan.

Reagan was a massive proponent of arms reduction signing many treaties with the soviets. That was the plan: Build up a convincing military superiority, and then bargain with it.

Reagan sent repeated notes, many of them hand written, to the Soviet leadership essentially all saying the same thing: An arms race is not a good idea, but if there is to be an arms race, we will win it.

Soviet leaders prior to Gorbachev ignored this message, but by Gorbachev's time the clearly superior capabilities of the US economy to produce weapons was increasingly evident, the US had, under Reagan, deployed a huge array of new technologies that the soviets could not match: M-X missles, stealth technology, work on SDI (hyped up though it was) and so on.

So Gorbachev was prepared to deal, and Reagain struck deals. Those deals were tantamount to US victory in the cold war.

The subsequent actual collapse of the USSR was irrelevant.
At this point, I don't buy what you're saying.

As noted in the article I cited, Gorbachev felt free to make a series of proposals for deep cuts in his country's nuclear arsenal because he was confident that the United States would not attack the Soviet Union. In conversation with his military advisers he rejected any plans that were premised on war with the West. Since he saw no threat of attack by the United States, Gorbachev was not intimidated by the military programs of the Reagan Administration. "These were unnecessary and wasteful expenditures that we were not going to match," he told us.

Perhaps you can come up with something to support your version of history?

jwm
 

fuji

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jwmorrice said:
At this point, I don't buy what you're saying.

As noted in the article I cited, Gorbachev felt free to make a series of proposals for deep cuts in his country's nuclear arsenal because he was confident that the United States would not attack the Soviet Union. In conversation with his military advisers he rejected any plans that were premised on war with the West. Since he saw no threat of attack by the United States, Gorbachev was not intimidated by the military programs of the Reagan Administration. "These were unnecessary and wasteful expenditures that we were not going to match," he told us.

Perhaps you can come up with something to support your version of history?

jwm
You think maybe he saw no threat of attack because, all the while building up military superiority, Reagan was reaching out and offering arms reduction and treaties and the like???

Reagan was president through multiple successive Soviet leaders. By the time Gorbachev got there the Reagan plan was well advanced, the military buildup immense, and the peace offers frequent and well known.
 

jwmorrice

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Maybe you misunderstood me. Let's ground ourselves. Perhaps you can come up with something in the way of sources to support your version of history.

jwm
 

fuji

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So far I haven't seen you take issue with any particular fact. What are you looking for a reference for specifically?

1. That Reagan was widely criticized for abandoning the containment policy?
2. That Reagan massively built up the US military?
3. That Reagan reached out to the Soviets with numerous treaty offers?
4. That the Soviet Union realized it was unable to compete with that?
5. That building this up and then negotiating a disarmament wasn't strategy?

You could take issue with every fact just to be an uncharitable debater, I guess, but the above all seems to be virtual common knowledge. I'm not sure what you're looking for, are you just being stubborn?
 

jwmorrice

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In the laboratory.
Okay, here are my points:

(1) The Soviet Union did not try to compete with the tremendously expensive American arms build-up. The political leadership recognized that they already had a more than ample nuclear deterrent. However, as noted in the previous article I cited, the Reagan doctrine did give encouragement to the efforts of hard line communists and the Russian military-industrial complex. That's surely not something to be regarded as a plus. I don't see you disputing these points with any information new to this thread.

(2) As Gorbachev has made clear, arms limitation negotiations with the Americans did not take place because of pressures from the American arms build-up but rather for internal reasons of economic inefficiency. See, for example, his statements at the time of Reagan's funeral. He's consistent on this point but perhaps you have other information at hand that would dispute this? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32927-2004Jun10.html

(3) Given the foregoing, it seems it would have been cheaper to continue detente and the policy of containment and you well might have arrived at the same result, i.e. the fall of communism and the Soviet Union.

(4) The policy of rollback has also come at a high price in other respects. Arming the Afghans and assisting them to defeat the Soviets was indeed satisfying. Certainly so to this on-looker. However, later came 9-11 and the current war in Afghanistan. "...it would seem relevant that for over a decade in the 1980's and early 1990's, the US government sponsored the largest and most successful jihad in modern history; that the CIA secretly armed and trained several hundred thousand fundamentalist warriors to fight against our common Soviet enemy; and that many of those who now targeted America wee veterans of that earlier CIA-sponsored jihad." (p. 508; Charlie Wilson's War) Blowback indeed, and another consequence of the Reagan Doctrine?

(5) I wonder too, how much of the Reagan Doctrine really originated with Reagan. Obviously he supplied the will to apply it but it appears that the policy of rollback was supplied to the Reagan Administration by the Heritage Foundation, an influential conservative think tank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Doctrine

jwm
 

diehard

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hillary quote from california debate:

"It took a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush, and it looks like it will take another Clinton to clean up after this one."
:D
 

onthebottom

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diehard said:
hillary quote from california debate:



:D
I was a great way to bring Republican control back to the Congress.....

OTB
 

fuji

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jwmorrice said:
As Gorbachev has made clear, arms limitation negotiations with the Americans did not take place because of pressures from the American arms build-up but rather for internal reasons of economic inefficiency.
I think you need another source. I don't think Gorbachev would be inclined to come out and say his administration was defeated by Reagan. Your whole argument appears to depend on trusting that Gorbachev is an honest reporter.

(4) The policy of rollback has also come at a high price in other respects. Arming the Afghans and assisting them to defeat the Soviets was indeed satisfying.
While Reagan continued that operation, and it was consistent with the rollback policy, it's worthwhile noting that it was a Democrat initiative started under Carter.

I wonder too, how much of the Reagan Doctrine really originated with Reagan.
A president's job is to hear lots of different ideas and pick the right one. Any policy ever implemented by any president had its origins somewhere. Other presidents and other people missed the importance of this one.
 

jwmorrice

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In the laboratory.
fuji said:
I think you need another source. I don't think Gorbachev would be inclined to come out and say his administration was defeated by Reagan. Your whole argument appears to depend on trusting that Gorbachev is an honest reporter.
Yes, it would be nice to have other sources besides Gorbachev.

Perhaps some works have come out on, for example, Politbureau discussions and debates from that era. That would be ideal, wouldn't it. However, I just don't know. So, I go with the facts such as I have them, and try not to deal in suppositions.

Was the Reagan Doctrine a success? I think a fair verdict is 'not proved'.

jwm
 

WoodPeckr

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onthebottom said:
I was a great way to bring Republican control back to the Congress.....

OTB
That was a 'fluke' brought on primarily by the emergence of loudmouths like Limbaugh and FAUX news, who were able to con the folks. Those folks won't be 'conned' again.
Today these neocon 'blowhards & fools' are dismissed for what they are, 'blowhards & fools', by most with only the few like bot, lange, etc who still swallow their Kool-Aid.
 

markvee

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WoodPeckr said:
That was a 'fluke' brought on primarily by the emergence of loudmouths like Limbaugh and FAUX news, who were able to con the folks. Those folks won't be 'conned' again.
Today these neocon 'blowhards & fools' are dismissed for what they are, 'blowhards & fools', by most with only the few like bot, lange, etc who still swallow their Kool-Aid.
Republicans want you to drink red Koolaid.
Democrats want you to drink blue Koolaid.
Libertarians want you to have a choice of pasteurized versus unpasteurized milk.
 

WoodPeckr

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markvee said:
Libertarians want you to have a choice of pasteurized versus unpasteurized milk.
LOL!!!
As long as it is 'unregulated'.....
Libertarians are all for letting business do whatever they please unfettered by safety and health agencies which hurt their 'bottom' line.
When they say they want small govt, what they mean is they want nobody watching what they do.
They say you can trust business to do what is best for you with no policing necessary!
This works pretty well in many third world countries, no....:eek:

Libertarians, makes some good points but generally come off looking as tools for big business....
 

markvee

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Which keeps businesses more honest,

public government regulation

or

private consumer information groups (like TERB)?

A pure libertarian would answer the latter.

I think that if we allow the governement to participate in the former then the decision making process should be fully disclosed to the public. Government regulation can protect the public, but this regulation can also restrict choice/competition while giving the public a false sense of security about safety.
 
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