Who dresses their little girls like this?

[rama putri]

Hmmm....where do I begin?

A winner says "Ok...that was pretty stupid. Won't do that again"

Assuming she thinks falling for the predator is 'stupid' and not dressing anyways she wants, I'd agree. Although I doubt that's what you had in mind writing that post.

A loser says "Well, I'm only 13, and I'm a victim, and it is someone else fault, and there is nothing I could have done to prevent it, so I'll be doing the exact same thing next week. It was just bad luck"

Ditto above. Maybe she'll wear a burqa next time. Apparently women who wear them get raped less often.

 

[solitaria]

Your a smug intellectual wanna be...

Yeah, yeah, I heard you the first time. BTW, I think you mean "You're a smug intellectual wanna be..."


PS - I'm flattered that you went back and read all my posts but it is kind of creepy too.

 

[Asterix]

You know you two, there is a pm function that will allow you to verbally abuse each other in private.

 

[solitaria]

Somehwhere in this thread the point got lost. Why don't we just all agree that little kids shouldn't dress slutty. and that rape any make shape or form is wrong... i'm not really sure what the arguing is for.

It's because it's not really a fair idea to suggest that a kid's freedom of expression should be taken away and them forced to live on someone else's terms because that is not love. Life is not boot camp or catholic school. I know you think you were somehow responsible in the sense that you think it was preventable somehow, but really if the 25 year old didn't chose you he would've chosen some other 13 year old and from my perspective you were just the unlucky one that he chose through no fault or actions of your own doing.

Also, the vast majority of rapes are done by people the victim knows such that how one dresses wouldn't really be a factor in his decision, and that plays out with statistics. Even if how one dresses can be shown to increase one's chances of becoming a rape victim past very negligible odds, does that mean every girl should be forced to dress in another way other than the way that she wants to express herself because there are bad people in the world who she might meet up with? As I said before, you can't live your life like that and I think you should start seeing your bad rape experience as something you couldn't have prevented or otherwise you'll have some measure of guilt and shame left over that you can't really let go of. You really should stop listening to the MPANewbies of the world who are sexually frustrated and hate the sexual power and independence women have over them and therefore get off telling women how to dress and act in a futile attempt to regain some of the inadequacies that they experience on a daily basis within themselves.

 

[luv4lust]

some parents have no clue what their kids are wearing let alone what they do when not at home
i have 2 kids one who can make her own choices because she is an adult 20 in the fall and one who is 12 and let me tell you while they live under my roof there is no way in hell i would let them dress like tarts
it all comes down to the parents and who they want their children to grow up to be

 

[solitaria]

...I wasn't pretending to be an expert or an amateur. But if we are to believe you you're...

1) An expert on the feelings of rape victims and what they would perceive as insensitive (perhaps you've been raped...I'll give you this one)

2) An expert on the maturity of 13 yo girls and their ability to be accountable for their behavior (I'm guessing you've never been a 13 yo girl, and your maturity level leads me to think you aren't old enough to have raised one)

3) An expert on the behavior or 25 yo male sexual predators (Hmmm...I'll give you this one too)

I was trying to decide whether to respond to this or not. I have never been raped but I would say I have been borderline molested a lot. I'm not saying my experiences even come close to parralleling Jersey's because they don't but I don't think they have to be in order for me to be able to understand the mentality at play here from the rapists' POV. I remember working as a clerk as a teenager and I used to always get cock-grabbed by this other clerk, even after I asked him to stop a million times and tried reasoning with him about why what he was doing was unfair to me. Sometimes it would even happen in front of the manager in the back but nothing happened even after I asked the manager to do something so I ended up quiting. I'm sure many guys have had other guys trying to have their way with them when they are just trying to do their business in the public washrooms where it starts out with the other guys peering over from adjacent urinals then following behind them in groups and desperately asking if they could suck on their cocks or give them a blow and positioning themselves in relation to you in aggressive/uncomfortable ways. It can happen anywhere, in any situation, and it doesn't matter how you are dressed and I am sure the same holds true for rape. If you try to avoid one type of situation you will just end up in another or living in fear inside your own house. From that perspective I think saying rape is preventable is counterproductive and unfair to the victims involved because they shouldn't be afraid to live their life afterwards and express themselves as individuals as they see fit and really it is not because of what they wear or the choices they make it is about having the unfortuanate luck of meeting up with a rapist.

Fuck I remember being in the house of Lancastor (FYI heterosexual SC) and this one guy was bugging the shit out of me to drive him home near closing time since he didn't have a ride, there was no public transportation at that hour, and he lived so far away. I had a bad feeling about this guy and I gave him about 50 million excuses why I couldn't, but he was just so persistent that I ended up saying Ok. After I drove him home, and just before I was about to back out of his driveway, he asked me to come in for drinks. I said no about a million times, but he kept saying it was the least he could do. At the time I hated being mean to people, so against my better judgment I ended up going and being in the difficult situation of the guy wanting me to pull down my pants and jerk off in front of him to start. Nothing like that happened but the guy was trying everything in his manipulative power to get me to do it while blocking the door such that it took an hour for me to leave and I had the saving grace of being bigger than him. That was when I was 20 and a full grown male, so I can only imagine how much harder it would be for a 13 year old girl to get herself out of a worse situation. Yes I was incredibly stupid (naive) but sometimes it is hard to listen to your inner voice when you are young (and I thought I was just being paranoid since I met the guy at a straight SC) when you are being manipulated by someone older who knows what they are doing and are aware of your weaknesses. Many rapes are done through these kinds of tactics, I think, so that the victim eventually finds herself in a position that she didn't want to be in but couldn't really get out of b/c of the subtle persistence of it all, and the fact it really wasn't about saying "No" just one time because of course would-be-rapists don't take no for an answer. I think it is unfair and harsh to say rapes such as Jersey's are preventable when the situation wasn't nearly as clear cut and simple as you try to make it out to be at the time, and really seeing rape as preventable only instills more fear into the victims and closes them off further from the world and their happiness in it.

 

[ggaleazz]

I was at the park this Fri (canada day), and there was this family just across from our picnic table. They had their daughter (who could be no more than 8 yrs old) dressed in a little bikini top that barely covered HER nipples. Now come on! It really makes you wonder who chooses the outifts for these kids and/or if their parents actually step back out of the 'aww she so cute' cloud to see how their child looks.

 

[rama putri]

No wonder North American girls lose their sense of sensuality with NA attitudes like these. An 8 year old wearing a bikini top is bad? I have been to many places around the world where attitudes are so much more healthier about children and innocence. Explain to me why an 8 year old girl wearing a bikini top is a bad thing? Be honest. Just admit because it turns YOU on. Creep.

 

[gibsomstreet]

I hate to say this, but when you look at both ends of the equation, i.e. parents that are "inappropriately" dressed/tattooed/pierced etc, it helps set a context.

Sorry to sound strategically prudish and retrograde (and a wet blanket on MILFhunting), but at least by the standards of our own childhood, the appearance of a lot of today's parents has at least as much to answer for as their children's appearance. At least, if one wants to make it an issue...

 

[gibsomstreet]

(1) It depends on what kind of bikini top, i.e. I think the implication is that it's "inappropriately skimpy" in this case.

(2) sometimes, we must remember, certain kinds of clothing can be more "obscene" than honest nudity. Thus, an 8 yr old child at a nude beach is actually less disturbing than an 8 yr old child dressed like an 18 yr old slut...

 

[slowandeasy]

I don't need to. You are the one who stated that how a woman (or a girl) dresses puts her at greater risk of sexual assault. Prove it or shut the fuck up.

ummm... I just reviewed my posts in this thread... I do not see a statement that reads "how a woman dresses puts her at greater risk of sexual assault". So you need to put your reading glasses on...

im·ply ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pl)
tr.v. im·plied, im·ply·ing, im·plies
To involve by logical necessity; entail: Life implies growth and death.
To express or indicate indirectly: His tone implied disapproval.

You stated that how a female dresses puts her at greater "risk" of sexual assault. Implicit in that statement is that she is therefore partially to blame for the sexual assault (because if she hadn't dressed that way, she wouldn't have been attacked). What on Earth does reading something implicit in your statement have to do with meeting you or being your shrink?

Are you really as dumb as you seem?

Given that I never made the statement you claim... its obvious that the only way you could have implied anything is if you were able to read my mind.....

Back to the point..... you are the one that claims that there is no correlation between a woman's style of dress and her chances of getting sexually assaulted....... perhaps you should prove it...

Before you start cursing again, let me state that I am not claiming that there is a direct correlation between the two... Try reading what I actually wrote instead of making it up...

 

[slowandeasy]

(1) It depends on what kind of bikini top, i.e. I think the implication is that it's "inappropriately skimpy" in this case.

(2) sometimes, we must remember, certain kinds of clothing can be more "obscene" than honest nudity. Thus, an 8 yr old child at a nude beach is actually less disturbing than an 8 yr old child dressed like an 18 yr old slut...

While I tend to agree that certain kinds of clothing can be more "obscene" than nudity.....

In this particular case, we are talking about an 8 year old child.... how can there be any implication of sexuality?

 

[The Shake]

I do not see a statement that reads "how a woman dresses puts her at greater risk of sexual assault".

Oh, really?

The fact is that many men are turned on by young girls...

My answer is that yes, I am turned on when I see a beautiful girl dressed sexy/provocatively. We are hard-wired that way and we are easily stimulated.... however, when you get a closer look and realize that the girl is only 14 years old, most well adjusted men would back off.... however, not all men are capable of doing that.... Some become more aroused if the girl is underaged... This is where theory meets reality... I would not want my daughter to be at risk...

As a teenager, I noticed that the girls who were dressed provacatively were viewed in a different manner than the girls that did not dress provacatively
The results can be quite devastating...

 

[The Shake]

Truth be told, my comments were directed more at her relationship with a 25 yo man when she was only 13 - a relationship she hid from her parents, an pretty clear indication that she knew the relationship was inappropriate.

So?

There is a massive difference between understanding that something is "inappropriate" and having the life skills - and brain development - to predict/appreciate the potential consequences of making inappropriate decisions.

It is very easy to sit back as an adult and tut-tut that "I/they should have known better". Doing so indicates a complete lack of understanding of the teenage brain. Could this particular woman have prevented that specific rape? Perhaps, although it certainly isn't the given that you (and the victim) seem to think.

 

[The Shake]

But even the most liberal thinker would have to admit that by sheer statistics alone the free women are taking more risks than the unemployed oppressed Muslim wives.

What statistics would those be?

 

[hooktonsc]

Girls are definitely dressing more suggestively earlier, but I'm not so sure that they are actually any more sexually active than in the '70s and '80s. Fashions and media didn't make it so apparent back then.

There were 2 or 3 girls who gave bjs in my junior high, to the best of my recollection (or as rumour would have it), and by grade 9, nobody dared admit they were a virgin - of course, most young teenagers lie about that, but do you think that the true stats would be so different today than 20 years ago? I mean, where are they having sex? They don't have access to a car, and no money / id for a hotel - especially since there are much more safe alternatives for exploring sexuality then back in the day - i.e. internet porn, TV, etc.?

 

[The Shake]

...because I just can't believe anyone is this naive or stupid...

His argument is neither naive nor stupid. While some of his comments/descriptions (i.e. "innocent") are somewhat incredulous, his understanding of both sexual assault and the mind of a teenager seem far more grounded in reality than your Motivational Speaker on Speed hyperbole.

Do you REALLY think that 13 yo girls who are sophisticated enough to dress "sexy"

What sort of sophistication (or even maturity) is required to mimic the fashion style of Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton? If ever there was a stupid comment in this thread...

and know how to flirt

Wow.

You take great pains to point out that you're not saying "she had it coming", but then you go back to the old argument that a girl "leading a guy on" is the cause of rape.

DON'T know that they shouldn't be in a romantic / intimate relationship with a 25 yo man?

So what?

You're again completely misunderstanding the teenage brain. The fact that she knew that her behaviour was wrong (and may have even been excited by that fact) does not mean that she could properly assess the real risk and potential consequences that she faced.

Read that again _ I didn't say they should know that he is going to rape them...but there is no way in hell such a girl doesn't know she shouldn't be play tonsil hockey with a guy twice her age - again, hence why her parents were kept in the dark.

Again, so what? What, exactly, is your point?

The fact that she knew that she was being "bad" does not make her culpable, even in part, for the actions of a sexual predator.

Really - honest - all kidding aside...do you REALLY think 13yo girls are that naive?

No. Teenage girls are incredibly worldly when it comes to men, sex, and relationships. They completely "get it" and we're fools if we think otherwise.

Of course, the only people who might believe that are teenage girls themselves...

 

[slowandeasy]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowandeasy
I do not see a statement that reads "how a woman dresses puts her at greater risk of sexual assault".



Oh, really?


Quote:
Originally Posted by slowandeasy
The fact is that many men are turned on by young girls...

My answer is that yes, I am turned on when I see a beautiful girl dressed sexy/provocatively. We are hard-wired that way and we are easily stimulated.... however, when you get a closer look and realize that the girl is only 14 years old, most well adjusted men would back off.... however, not all men are capable of doing that.... Some become more aroused if the girl is underaged... This is where theory meets reality... I would not want my daughter to be at risk...

As a teenager, I noticed that the girls who were dressed provacatively were viewed in a different manner than the girls that did not dress provacatively
The results can be quite devastating...

Sorry Shake... There is a difference between saying that some men are aroused/attracted by younger girls or girls who are dressed provacatively is not the same as saying that there is a correlation between the way girls dress and sexual assaults... As a matter of fact, I go on to explain that in my younger days, girls who dressed provocatively were treated much differently than other girls, and the result was devestating on those girls self esteem etc...

I can think of many instances of girls that tried so desparately to get noticed that they started wearing very "slutty" clothing. Some of these girls I knew when we were very very young before the "slutty" stage. They were wonderful girls who deserved better. Because of their "new slutty look" they were treated as trophies... they were searching for love, but many of the guys (quite a few older guys) were only looking for one thing...

This is not to say that they were sexually assaulted. But often they were treated badly..

I do not know if there is a correlation between sexual assault and the way women dress... however, I am sure that there is a correlation with the way that women dress and the way that they are viewed by others in society... I am not a sociologist, but I do believe that most in society have a negative view of women who dress "slutty".

If the fact that I have admitted being turned on by a young girl dressed up like a 25 year old is a problem for you... then please say so.....

 

[The Shake]

Somehwhere in this thread the point got lost. Why don't we just all agree that little kids shouldn't dress slutty. and that rape any make shape or form is wrong... i'm not really sure what the arguing is for.

Well, it's a discussion forum, and people are discussing an issue. I'm not sure why that isn't clear.

Regardless, the "argument" is quite legitimate. Some people, yourself included, seem to think that how a young girl dresses is related to her risk of being sexually assaulted. Implicit in that line of thinking is the shop-worn argument about "teases having it coming". People with a real understanding of sexual assault tend to object to that line of thinking, hence the debate in this forum.

 

[The Shake]

What I did imply is that she probably knew that a relationship between a 13 yo and a 25 yo was inappropriate. Had she listen to that voice that probably told her as much, subsequent events would not have occurred.

Again, you seem oblivious to how the teenage mind works (or, perhaps more accurate, doesn't work). Sadly, the criminal who assaulted her wasn't as naive as you.

as in trusting their instincts??

Oh, Lord.

After you've done some growing up - perhaps having had a chance to have some real responsibility in life (for example, having a 13 yo who you care for and worry about)

I was wondering how long it would take someone to through this red herring at Solitara. The fact that you care or worry about a child does not even remotely make you more qualified than him to discuss this issue, or to understand what happened. Emotional proximity does not necessarily equal insight or wisdom.