Why are the Israel/Hamas casualties so lopsided?

[groggy]

If you want to get back on topic, check out this post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tion-as-gazans-return-to-their-neighborhoods/

The kind of destruction to full neighbourhoods, hospitals, schools, ambulances, apartment buildings and a whole host of war crime targets is shocking.
Its a massive war crime, the targeting and destruction of civilian infrastructure.

No wonder Israel is killing about 400 times as many civilians.

 

[fuji]

I'm not talking about 20 century. I'm talking about 500 years ago. True , jews in Ottoman empire didn't have the same rights as muslims but enjoyed more religious freedom under Ottoman empire compared to Europe at the same time. And some of them moved from Europe to Ottoman Empire to enjoy more religious freedom

I think Jews have been persecuted on and off in every part of the world. There were times when there were pogroms and times when there was peace in the ottoman Empire and in Europe.

That is what happens to stateless people. Israel has been the answer to that question, protection diplomatic cover for Jews around the world since its founding, and more than one organizing massive airlifts to get Jewish populations out of places where they faced violence.

 

[fuji]

Its a massive war crime, the targeting and destruction of civilian infrastructure.

They are targeting Hamas, who are operatingn in those civilian areas. Your mindless jibber jabber doesn't make it a war crime.

You might want to look at some WW2 city photos sometime. Wars in urban areas aren't pretty but that doesn't make it a crime.

This is the reason Israel advised people to get out of there.

 

[groggy]

They are targeting Hamas, who are operatingn in those civilian areas. Your mindless jibber jabber doesn't make it a war crime.

Bullshit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...neighborhoods/

Unless you're trying to claim that everyone in Gaza is Hamas, but then you're just backing genocide.

 

[groggy]

They have nowhere to go. If Israel was a humanitarian country as you claim and cares about civilians , why they didn't let them get into Israel ?

Why won't they let civilian refugees enter and get proper health care for their wounds?
Why can't Palestinians enter but Jews can?

 

[fuji]

1-Jews have never been stateless before 1948.

To clarify, a State that represents them as a nation.

2- Following your logic, the gipsies who are dispersed everywhere in Europe also need to create their own state. Should they ask Romania or Bulgaria to give them a piece of land ?

Absolutely, the Roma are indeed aggressively persecuted in good measure because they do not have a state level entity providing diplomatic cover for their wellbeing.

Maybe they really should.

 

[basketcase]

The article talk about the 1930 under british rule not ottomans

First off, your bullshit quote said the Brits stole the land from Arabs and gave it to Jews. That is your outright bullshit claim number 1.

Despite your refusal to deal in facts, I also provided you quotes from 3 well known historians including a Palestinian one who detail that Arabs were selling their land to Jews both during the Ottoman Empire and during the British Mandate.

And yes, the legal owner of the land is the only one entitled to sell that land. Do you really think that a tenant (which is what most of the Fellahin were) has the right to sell land they don't own or to live on land when the legal owner doesn't want it?

 

[fuji]

They have nowhere to go. If Israel was a humanitarian country as you claim and cares about civilians , why they didn't let them get into Israel ?

Gaza is not that small. The areas under attack are just part of Gaza city which itself is only a tiny part of Gaza. Don't exaggerate.

They don't leave because Hamas coerces them to stay and threatens reprisals against those who leave.

 

[basketcase]

1-Jews have never been stateless before 1948. They had polish, Russian, German, Yemenite, Moroccan etc.. citizenships. Palestinians from west bank and Gaza are the ones statells now because they have no independent country and no Israeli citizenship.

Again, not true for most Jews in Arab land. There they either had no official citizenship or they had second class dhimmi citizenship no matter how long they and their ancestors were living there. For example, Jews had been living in Egypt for centuries upon centuries yet when Egypt gained independence, Jews were not given citizenship unless they could afford to pay for it. After other Jews began immigrating to Israel, Egypt (among other Arab states) revoked citizenship for Jews and chased them out even though they had nothing to do with Israel and most weren't zionists.. That sure seems stateless to me.

In Europe, Jews usually were able to get citizenship in their home countries but we also know how uncertain that could be.

Now according to the UN Convention on Refugees host countries have the duty to allow refugees the opportunity to integrate, access services, and lead productive lives. How many Arab states follow the convention when it applies to Palestinians?

2- Following your logic, the gipsies who are dispersed everywhere in Europe also need to create their own state. Should they ask Romania or Bulgaria to give them a piece of land ?

With the way they have been treated, they would be a lot safer with their own home though I have no idea if they want one. If they do and there is a place that already has a significant Roma population it should be looked at.

p.s. The Tibetans, the Kurds, and the Tamils also deserve some form of independence from the groups persecuting them and in those cases, there is already land they are the majority in.

p.p.s. The term 'gypsy' is considered derogatory in most circles.

 

[basketcase]

Why won't they let civilian refugees enter and get proper health care for their wounds?

Quite a number of Palestinian wounded have been treated in Israel though the official stance of Hamas discourages people from availing themselves of Israeli medical services.

Why can't Palestinians enter but Jews can?

Could it be because the Palestinians (especially Hamas) are officially at war with Israel? Because they Aren't Israeli citizens and don't want to be?

And actually Palestinians from the West Bank routinely enter Israel and Arab Israelis are free to enter and leave as they want.

 

[fuji]

Only 9% of the land was purchased from Fellahin, the majority of land was purchased from non-palestinian owners who had larger land.

So it wasn't even Palestinian land?

You are going to lose this point. A lawful land purchase is a lawful land purchase. They raised funds and paid a fair price for their land. No land was stolen. They settled on land that was rightly theirs.

 

[basketcase]

Only 9% of the land was purchased from Fellahin, the majority of land was purchased from non-palestinian owners who had larger land.

Why do you refuse to actually read? Is your agenda so important for you to stick to or do you have a fuji-like stubborn streak?

Fact is that according to historians, Jews bought land from the land's legal owners. End of story. If 9% was purchased directly from Fellahin, that means that the Fellahin only owned 9% of the land. Is your hard on for Israel so bad that you think tenants have the right to sell the property the live on?

Your argument and your bullshit claim is completely destroyed by actual historians.

Are you sticking to the story that instead of Jews buying land from the legal owners, the Brits stole property and sold it to Jews?

 

[fuji]

Really ? Why there is a wall then ?

To ensure everyone entering is screened at the border and searched for explosives. There are indeed some Palestinians who have jobs in Israel and enter daily to go to work.

 

[basketcase]

Really ? Why there is a wall then ?

Is that a real question or are you just continuing bowing smoke out of your ass?

First, most of it is a fence, not a wall.

Second, the line between the West Bank and Israel is (unless land is swapped in a peace deal) is a border and every country has the right control immigration. Your question is a stupid as asking why there fences and border officials when you cross into the US.

Palestinians who apply and get travel permits to enter Israel do so and do so in pretty significant numbers.

 

[fuji]

You omitted the fact that 52% of land was sold by british who owned larger land, you focus on the tiny part that was sold by Fallahin.

Sold.

You aren't disputing the essential point.

 

[fuji]

Hahahaha , this is a good joke because real borders are between sovereign countries , the west bank isn't a sovereign country it technically belongs to Israel and the entrance to West bank from Jordan is controlled by Israel.
So this is an internal apartheid fence and not an external border.

The borders of Iraq didn't cease to exist just because it was occupied. Occupied countries still have their own international borders.

The West Bank does not "technically belong to Israel" that is why it is called "occupied territory". Israel administers it as an occupier.

Calling the fence an apartheid fence is ludicrous and pathetic propaganda unrelated to reality. The situation isn't even remotely like apartheid.

 

[basketcase]

You omitted the fact that 52% of land was sold by british who owned larger land, you focus on the tiny part that was sold by Fallahin.

Really? Where do you get that immagination from. I provided actual historians who say otherwise. What do you have? Your imagination?


By the way, here is what you claimed to pretend that Brits stole the land and sold it to Jews.

Here you go. You can read here that more than half of the land was purchased from non-palestinians:


In the 1930s most land was bought from small landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, "52.6% of the lands were bought from big non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian-Arab landowners and only 9.4% from the Fellahin".[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
...

Where does it say that the Brits stole it and sold it?


It is also interesting that you quote a wikipedia page yet chose to omit the facts that you don't like. Here's the rest of that section

The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 "brought about the appropriation by the influential and rich families of Beirut, Damascus, and to a lesser extent Jerusalem and Jaffa and other sub-district capitals, of vast tracts of land in Syria and Palestine and their registration in the name of these families in the land registers".[8] Many of the fellahin did not understand the importance of the registers and therefore the wealthy families took advantage of this. Jewish buyers who were looking for large tracts of land found it favorable to purchase from the wealthy owners. As well many small farmers became in debt to rich families which lead to the transfer of land to the new owners and then eventually to the Jewish buyers.

In 1918, after the British conquest of Palestine, the military administration closed the Land Register and prohibited all sale of land. The Register was reopened in 1920, but to prevent speculation and insure a livelihood for the fellahin, an edict was issued forbidding the sale of more than 300 dunams of land or the sale of land valued at more than 3000 Palestine pounds without the approval of the High Commissioner.[9]

From the 1880s to the 1930s, most Jewish land purchases were made in the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley, the Jordan Valley and to a lesser extent the Galilee.[8] This was due to a preference for land that was cheap and without tenants.[8] There were two main reasons why these areas were sparsely populated. The first reason being when the Ottoman power in the rural areas began to diminish in the seventeenth century, many people moved to more centralized areas to secure protection against the lawless Bedouin tribes.[8] The second reason for the sparsely populated areas of the coastal plains was the soil type. The soil, covered in a layer of sand, made it impossible to grow the staple crop of Palestine, corn.[8] As a result this area remained uncultivated and under populated.[4] "The sparse Arab population in the areas where the Jews usually bought their land enabled the Jews to carry out their purchase without engendering a massive displacement and eviction of Arab tenants".[8]

Seems to support the claim that Jews bought land legally from the land's legal owners.

 

[basketcase]

...an internal apartheid fence ...

Yep, an apartheid fence where people of any ethnicity routinely pass through and where ethnic Palestinians with Israeli citizenship get treated the same as Jews with Israeli citizenship.

 

[fuji]

What you call border between Israel and West Bank isn't recognized as an international border unless Palestine was recognized internationally as an independent country. So Palestine has no international borders because it isn't a country.
Did Palestinians get finally their independant state and I'm not aware of that ? Did I miss something ?

You are making this up as you go. Again, occupied countries still have recognized borders and the specific borders recognized for Palestine are spelled out explicitly in multiple UN resolutions.

And yes, it seems you did miss that the UN has recognized Palestine as a state, but even if they hadn't you are taking nonsense.

Palestine IS NOT part of Israel. Israel administers the government on behalf of the Palestinian people until such time as it can withdraw. That is what "occupied" literally means.

 

[basketcase]

See my previous links above

Where does it say anything about Brits stealing land? It doesn't. It says the land owners sold it to Jews and the land owners were not residents of the Palestine Mandate.

Of course the three historians I quoted to you would tell you that "non-Palestinian" were Former citizens of the Ottoman Empire who lived in places like Damascus, Beirut, or Medina.

But don't let that stop you from spewing more bullshit.


p.s. The wiki has links for their sources. You might want to read the google book preview of this one. It has lots of specific details about who bought land from whom, how it was administered, what kinds of compensation the tenants received.
http://books.google.co.il/books?id=...E8PA0QXvjoG4DQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=true
Of course doing so would upset your fairy tale version of history.