Will spas enforce the vaccine passport?

[squeezer]

So wearing a mask is not very effective when the potential infection rate is low to begin with and the potential for being infected depends on your underlying conditions and age. Those under 18 were always highly virus resistant.

I think maskers are virtue signalers, not health warriors. Do it if you want, just don't think it's effective or make anyone else wear them, they're harmful in many ways.

Nonsense and bullshit!

 

[squeezer]

In this pandemic which is increasingly pathological with the delta variant and increasingly political, we should not expect the government to pay toomuch attention to enforcing vaccine passports usage in the sex trade. Public Health struggled with even acknowledging and working with the sex trade pre-pandemic, is currently overwhelmed and is not likely to enforce actions on the hundreds of brothels across the GTA where guys boink working ladies by trailing them with QR vaccine passports.

This I agree with. I do not believe they will enforce rules on the sex trade except for possibly strip joints and massage parlors who are considered by politicians actual businesses serving clientele.

 

[lomotil]

All correct, almost.

Your description of what the vaccine does and doesn't do is my understanding as well.

Where we differe is how describe the need for masking. It assumes that the 20% of unvaxinated are going to become ill, extremely ill. You forget that the majority of illness is those who lived in old age homes. They are now almost fully vaxxed. The next highest group, together adding up to well over 70% of all cases, were those over 65 with other underlying conditions. Most of them have also been vaxxed.

The remaining cases of younger adults made up 25% of the balance of cases and also had underlying conditions.

So wearing a mask is not very effective when the potential infection rate is low to begin with and the potential for being infected depends on your underlying conditions and age. Those under 18 were always highly virus resistant.

I think maskers are virtue signalers, not health warriors. Do it if you want, just don't think it's effective or make anyone else wear them, they're harmful in many ways.

Soon those with “Long Covid “ will outnumber the anti masker and anti vaxxer pariah cabal. The pandemic seems to have a long way to go yet and is a definite lifestyle changer for us all in so many ways.

 

[Dcoat]

Nonsense and bullshit!

How eloquent!

 

[Aioria]

This.

It's the anti-vaxx crowd that likes to change the goalposts. No one involved with the development of the vaccines ever said that people who are vaccinated couldn't get Covid; no one involved with the development of the vaccine ever said people who were vaccinated could't transmit Covid. No government of health agency ever promised any such thing. It's the anti-vaxx crowd now who have ignored that and made up their own rules - "the vaxx is uselss because you can be vaccinated and still get it or transmit it." Not the point.

The promise was that those who are fully vaccinated will be very unlikely to develop a serious case of Covid and end up in hospital or dead. The statistics back that up 100%.

Most of those who are vaccinated wear masks, social distance in places with large numbers of people and support vaccine passports not out of fear for ourselves but because we fully understand what the vaccines do and don't do and we don't want to infect the unvaccinated, if only because we don't want to contribute to the plugging up of our hospitals by Covid patients (who likely wouldn't be in the hospital at all if they had only been vaccinated) which potentially affects everyone.

Basically 80% of the population are being held hostage by the other 20%.

Your analysis is completely flawed. You assume that 100% of those 20% unvaccinated never got covid and haven't developed natural immunity.

Types of Immunity to a Disease | CDC

Immunity to a disease is achieved when there are antibodies to that disease in a person’s system. There are two types of immunity: active and passive.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Aioria]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/ptvm0f

It would be nice to see such info from an official source and not on reddit. The government should be sharing this info. Even though I don't necessarily trust a lot of numbers shared, it makes it more legit.

 

[PeteOsborne]

Your analysis is completely flawed. You assume that 100% of those 20% unvaccinated never got covid and haven't developed natural immunity.

Types of Immunity to a Disease | CDC

Immunity to a disease is achieved when there are antibodies to that disease in a person’s system. There are two types of immunity: active and passive.

www.cdc.gov

No, yours is.
Population of Canada (2019) 37,590,000.
Number of Covid cases 1,594.200 as of Sept 13.
Which means just over 4% of Canadians infected, leaving 96% without "natural immunity".
Early cases of Covid are getting reinfected because of dropping antibodies.
Also how many have been vaccinated after being infected already with covid as per health experts recommendations?
These two factors further drops the 4% and increases the remainder of unvaccinated.
Now if we add in vaccination numbers.
Also in Canada we are not at 80% fully vaccinated nationally, as of 9:14 a.m. CST we are at 75.9% with one dose and 69.9% with two doses.
In Ontario we are 75.5% one dose and 70.4% fully vaccinated.
Which means that unvaccinated percentage of 96%, assuming none of the just over 4% previously infected have been vaccinated, is now 20% unvaccinated with no previous infection.

 

[benstt]

It would be nice to see such info from an official source and not on reddit. The government should be sharing this info. Even though I don't necessarily trust a lot of numbers shared, it makes it more legit.

Yeah i don't really care what you want, especially if you are just going to turn around and cast doubt on numbers from government source like other covid wokers.

I posted them for reasonable readers to let them know the information is out there and they can trace how the analysis was done.

And it is pretty fucking clear that vaccines are doing an amazing job reducing risk.

Get vaccinated. Be an adult.

 

[Dcoat]

My analysis is not flawed at all and I don't make that assumption. However, decision making is being driven by the number of vaccinated vs the number of unvaccinated, since there's actually no way of knowing (minus a decision to test every person in Ontario for antibodies, and even that wouldn't be completely accurate) how many of the 20% have ever had Covid. Thus, the 20% unvaccinated (whether they've ever had Covid or not) are currently dictating the need for public health measures.

there are about 1.5 million Canadians who have been infected and are walking around the country. Thats a pretty meaningful number, and without adding that the vaccines weaken a person's narual immunity, lets say the same 20% of the previously infected are "vaccine hesitant".

You have to see the potential group of future unvaccinated infected people as pretty small. That gives less reason to expose yourself and more particularly kids, to the problems of being masked for hours on end per day.

 

[PeteOsborne]

there are about 1.5 million Canadians who have been infected and are walking around the country. Thats a pretty meaningful number, and without adding that the vaccines weaken a person's narual immunity, lets say the same 20% of the previously infected are "vaccine hesitant".

You have to see the potential group of future unvaccinated infected people as pretty small. That gives less reason to expose yourself and more particularly kids, to the problems of being masked for hours on end per day.

Just wondering if you proofread yourself before posting.

 

[Aioria]

My analysis is not flawed at all and I don't make that assumption. However, decision making is being driven by the number of vaccinated vs the number of unvaccinated, since there's actually no way of knowing (minus a decision to test every person in Ontario for antibodies, and even that wouldn't be completely accurate) how many of the 20% have ever had Covid. Thus, the 20% unvaccinated (whether they've ever had Covid or not) are currently dictating the need for public health measures.

Well it is, because you're also assuming 100% of the 80% vaccinated people have immunity, which is not true. First, vaccinations aren't 100% effective so 100% of vaccinated people are not protected. What is more, those who were vaccinated over 6-8 months ago no longer have protection according to the experts and hence why they are pushing for booster shots.

 

[Aioria]

No, yours is.
Population of Canada (2019) 37,590,000.
Number of Covid cases 1,594.200 as of Sept 13.
Which means just over 4% of Canadians infected, leaving 96% without "natural immunity".

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
You're assuming everyone who has had covid got tested. First of all, there are many asymptomatic cases and also many people got covid but stayed home after getting the symptoms and recovered.

 

[Rorschach]

Even if we reached 100% vaccine rates the government would move the goal posts and put other roadblocks in place. We already reached targets they set out previously as they dangled those like a carrot in front of us to "return to normal" never happened. The vaccine passports are only cause more loss for businesses while government threaten them with lockdowns event tough the government measures have not worked because so many factories etc. like Amazon and others flout the rules. Customers have to show the passports but the employees don't have to show theirs. If vaccines work so well then why worry about those unvaccinated and if the vaccines don't protect so well then why would the unvaccinated want them? So much hypocrisy as they make up the rules yet those rules don't change things and then they shift the numbers. It is a feel good move as they know businesses may ask but are not going to go hardline if a customer is bringing in high revenue. I doubt the MPs will be asking but I suspect more public health inspections and the inspectors may ask. Remember the government is all about revenue collection so expect them to start issuing fines since they are in need of money. Remember when the Government worked for us …ya long ago that's what we thought but we soon learned that is not the case.

Uh huh, and banning cigarettes at bars devastated the industry. Your logic be flawed.

 

[PeteOsborne]

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
You're assuming everyone who has had covid got tested. First of all, there are many asymptomatic cases and also many people got covid but stayed home after getting the symptoms and recovered.

It makes perfect sense to anyone with any.
But ok, for arguments sake and not based on any data at all, double the cases to 3.2 million which is 8.6%.
Now take the national percentage of vaccinated of 75.9% with one dose and 69.9% with two doses.
Take the one dose percentage of 75.9% plus your 8% previously infected still leaves 16% unvaccinated which is still over 6 million people.

 

[just4]

Step One: 60% of adults vaccinated with one dose
Step Two: 70% of adults vaccinated with one dose and 20% vaccinated with two doses
Step Three: 70 to 80% of adults vaccinated with one dose and 25% vaccinated with two doses
...
We're now at 80% of adults vaccinated with two doses and yet must deal with a new condition: vaccination passports.

it makes no sense when we reach the goals set out then they impose new rules it only shows they have no idea as to what works. No problem with the vaccine but strong problem with incompetent medical advise and hypocrisy of lockdowns allowing some yet not others to be open. Lockdown Amazon Walmart and everything then see how quickly those type of lockdowns end. So to have the vaccine work you need to only be around others that are vaccinated? isn't the point of a vaccine is to protect you from the virus in any situation? If the vaccine is so limited that unvaccinated people being around you being vaccinated doesn't that indicate how poorly effective the vaccine is?

 

[sp free]

The rules specifically mention several types of adult businesses and sex clubs. If that’s what they think, it’s just a matter of time before they end up with a hefty fine

That they will beat in court since vaccine passports are illegal.

 

[fall]

It would hamper their business in some ways, but encourage it in others. I want the risk to be as low as possible before I decide to jump back in. I want the girl I’m going to see vaccinated. I want anyone she might have seen before me to be vaccinated, too.

it doesn’t eliminate the risk, but given vaccinated people are like 5x less likely to get the virus in the first place, it’s still quite significant.

You know, you must show a valid ID with your name on it, right? I would prefer to stay anonymous.

 

[hedo rick]

You know, you must show a valid ID with your name on it, right? I would prefer to stay anonymous.

Quite honestly the safety aspect trumps the privacy one, I think, at least IMO, for now.. also the app is supposed to come out in a few weeks removing this concern..

 

[George The Curious]

They should make an option of showing vaccine passport or negative covid test result. Or 5 min rapid home test kit. If that's the goal of reducing transmission rate. The goal should not be forced vaccination, especially the potential long term side effects of unproven vaccine far outweigh that of covid screening tests.

 

[Aioria]

You should never assume anything. Let me try to make this clear because you're not getting my point.

I am making no assumption at all about how many of the 80% get the thing or how many of the 20% don't get the thing and I'm not making assumptions about who's immune or how many have immunity. Nor is that the basis on which the government is proceeding, because, simply, there's really no accurate way to define those numbers.

I am saying that the government is basing its public health decisions at least in part on the percentage of the population who are vaccinated vs the percentage who are unvaccinated. That's what the government is doing. That is not an assumption of any kind on my part. That is what the government is doing. Therefore, those who are unvaccinated are, for the moment, running the show and causing more restrictions than would likely be needed if only more of them would get vaccinated, because that is the basis on which government decision-making is proceeding. Thus, the ~20% are dictating to the ~80%.

As long as a substantial portion of the population remains unvaccinated government imposed health restrictions will continue at least until COVID is reduced to an endemic rather than pandemic level in the province - which experts have suggested could happen partway through next year.

Pandemic means essentially out of control and unpredictable. Endemic means a largely predictable rate of infection without restrictions that can be planned for and managed (ie, no huge and sudden spikes that catch people by surprise and overwhelm the health system.)

Now if you're still going to accuse me of making personal assumptions about how many are or aren't infected, etc. then you're clearly not listening to me or you're incapable of understanding me.

You're going by what the government is telling you and I'm pointing out that they are making incorrect assumptions.
Do you also realize that the government considers the following groups of people as unvaccinated, when it counts covid cases:
- those who got 1 shot
- those who got 2 shots, but got covid within 14 days of their second shot (similarly if someone dies within 14 days of taking their second shot, their death would count as an unvaccinated person)
- those who got 2 shots, but got covid 120 days after their second shot
The government has made certain decisions during this pandemic that someone knowledgeable enough would question including:
- pushing ahead with AZ vaccinations while many countries put on the breaks, because of the early safety concerns around blood clots that were appearing
- saying it's no problem to delay taking the second shot, because of shipment delays, meanwhile the vaccines were studied for a specific number of weeks apart and none of the pharmaceuticals backed that notion
- encouraging mixing vaccines, again because of shipment delays, which once again none of the pharmaceuticals backed and if you read the product monograph for the now approved Pfizer covid vaccine it says:
"There are no data available on the interchangeability of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of
Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series."
Because of their gaffe the government had to ask other countries to let Canadian visitors enter, because many countries don't consider someone fully vaccinated by mixing vaccines, as such vaccines were not conceived to be used such a wat. And, the government had no choice but to start its own trial to try and support this experimental idea. You can read more about the MOSAIC trial here:

About Research Studies - CIRN

CIRN conducts a variety of research studies throughout the year, and many of these studies are multi-year projects. Often there are opportunities for members of the public to participate in studies in their local area; the Research Studies descriptions provide an overview of the study and...

cirnetwork.ca

- one of the worse things the government did was extending the expiry of a batch of an AZ vaccine. That's a huge no no. Pharma companies deal with huge losses every year from scrapping expired drug. Yet instead of donating the vaccines that were to expire, in order not to lose the drugs, the government decided it would simply extend their expiry by 1 month. If pharma companies could do that as they please, they would save lots of money! There is a reason the expiry is a certain date and that's from the data the pharma company has come up with. If they could extend the expiry date, you could be sure they would and sometimes they do after producing the data to support this.
Anyway I could keep going, but I think you get the picture.