Will you vote for Rob Ford again if he runs next Election??

Will you vote for Rob Ford again if he runs next Election??


  • Total voters
    266
  • Poll closed .

fijiman

Member
Aug 19, 2001
562
0
16
What I find so shocking about this discussion is how many people seem to have blindly accepted "Ford Nation" political/election propaganda as fact. Even when presented with evidence that disproves the propaganda.

Toronto is nowhere close to being bankrupt, and Toronto's municipal tax burden is comparable to or lower than the other large cities in Canada and the US.

For the record, I'm a fiscal conservative and an insurance executive. So please spare me the dimwitted "you're a lazy lefty" frothing at the mouth.
 

JamesDouglas

Active member
Nov 10, 2011
1,222
0
36
There should not be a byelection that will cost us 7 million dollars, that's absurd. A new mayor should be appointed that's fiscally conservative, and the only 2 options are one of the Dougs, either Doug Holyday or Doug Ford. If a socialist like Olivia Chow or Adam Vaughn are selected it would be completely unjust and a slap in the face to all Toronto voters and there will likely be protests and riots as a result. In 2014, Holyday or one of the Ford brothers will get elected and we can continue on in the hopes of becoming a world class city.
 

Don Draper

Cufflinks & Cognac
Nov 24, 2009
6,364
644
113
There should not be a byelection that will cost us 7 million dollars, that's absurd. A new mayor should be appointed that's fiscally conservative, and the only 2 options are one of the Dougs, either Doug Holyday or Doug Ford. If a socialist like Olivia Chow or Adam Vaughn are selected it would be completely unjust and a slap in the face to all Toronto voters and there will likely be protests and riots as a result. In 2014, Holyday or one of the Ford brothers will get elected and we can continue on in the hopes of becoming a world class city.
That's a damaging and harmful scenario to Toronto if ever there was one.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,072
3,991
113
Reminds me of what Mark Twain once said, "figures don't lie, but liars can figure'.

This is the kind of stuff that the American right-wingers try to pull off all the time. They take a series of unrelated facts and use them to draw absurd conclusions. Like Obama is not an American. Or, Obama is a Muslim.

All of these numbers don't add up to squat unless you can identify whether the $ was wasted. And your hero, despite the bluster, couldn't find squat.

People who support Ford's vision of Toronto as Parry Sound on Lake Ontario, look at the money Miller spent as an expense and and a waste. Others who are interested in building a better city, see this activity as investing in the future. Remember, it is Rob Ford who wants to build all of these un-viable subways for BILLIONS of dollars.
Numbers don't lie.

Disprove my numbers.

I'm not a fan of Rob Ford. But I despise leftists and socialists who think it's "good" to spend money we don't have and drive us into debt.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,072
3,991
113
From your own numbers, 9.2/7.56=122%. Virtually bang on to my reference to a 20% increase net of inflation/population growth.
Also, the population growth link you provided is for 2001-2006, and not for 2003-2010.

I don't mind different opinions, but I dislike when people use fake or inaccurate figures to support their position.
Negative.

Government spending should not be increasing at a rate faster than inflation, otherwise, it is unsustainable.

At the time Miller took office, the City of Toronto's budget was 6.5 billion dollars. At 2 percent inflation per year, Miller's spending should have capped out at 7.5 billion, not 9.2 billion.

The population growth in Toronto proper has not been in line with the number of city employees added to the payroll.

(And you can dig up any link you want to population growth in Toronto proper, it will not be greater than 1 percent.) I moved to Toronto in 1989 and the population was 2.1 million at the time. Now, 23 years later, it's 2.65 million.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,072
3,991
113
Here's an interesting Comparison......

City of Chicago
Population - 3 million
Total budget = 8.3 billion
Number of City Employees - 36,000

City of Toronto
Population - 2.7 million
Budget = 9.5 billion operating + 2.8 billion capital = 12.3 billion
Number of Employees - 53,000
 

fijiman

Member
Aug 19, 2001
562
0
16
JT Kirk, it may be that english is your second language or that you have a learning or mental impairment, in which case I sincerely apologize in advance. However your post is rife with factual and/logical inaccuracies, and I would be remiss if I didn't correct them.

Government spending should not be increasing at a rate faster than inflation, otherwise, it is unsustainable
Factually false. Perhaps you mean "at a rate faster than the the growth in the economy"? That would be the sum of inflation, population growth, and inflation/population adjusted economic growth.

At the time Miller took office, the City of Toronto's budget was 6.5 billion dollars. At 2 percent inflation per year, Miller's spending should have capped out at 7.5 billion, not 9.2 billion.
That has not been the topic that began this discussion between you and I. I said that the inflation/population adjusted increase had been 20%. You responded "????" and that my contention of a 20% increase "didn't add up". Once again I point out that your own figures equal the 20% increase I claimed.

(And you can dig up any link you want to population growth in Toronto proper, it will not be greater than 1 percent.) I moved to Toronto in 1989 and the population was 2.1 million at the time. Now, 23 years later, it's 2.65 million.
2.65m/2.1m is 26% increase. 26% is greater than 1%.

Perhaps you meant 1% a year?

If so, the yearly increase was 1.2% from 2006 to 2011, which is greater than 1%.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/02/08/toronto-2011-census.html

Besides which, the relevance of our discussion on population growth is that you had disingenuously used the 5 year growth 2001-2006 (total 1%) as a proxy for the 7 year growth 2003-2010 which we can now see was closer to 5%. (ie 3/7 x 0.9% + 4/5 x 5.9%=approx 5.2%)

This would adjust the City of Toronto budget increase to 17%, adjusted for population and inflation. Adjusting for economic growth would further reduce the increase.

Again, I don't mind an intelligent discussion from those with different beliefs. But please don't fabricate or twist factually disprovable numbers. And if someone makes a sincere error, just say "I apologize" and we move on (that is a sign of strength, not weakness)
 

fijiman

Member
Aug 19, 2001
562
0
16
Here's an interesting Comparison......

City of Chicago
Population - 3 million
Total budget = 8.3 billion
Number of City Employees - 36,000

City of Toronto
Population - 2.7 million
Budget = 9.5 billion operating + 2.8 billion capital = 12.3 billion
Number of Employees - 53,000
So Chicago 8.3b for 3m people, compared to Toronto 9.5b for 2.7m people. 20% lower per person for Chicago. But with a different government structure, and different services as these are two different countries.

Also, you neglected to mention that Chicago has municipal debt of $13.5b, compared to Toronto's $4b.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/cityha...to-creation-of-infrastructure-trust-fund.html

And that Chicago residential property tax rates are almost double those of Toronto, 1.25%-1.75% vs 0.78%
http://www.chicagohomeestates.com/info/taxes
http://www.toronto.ca/taxes/property_tax/tax_rates.htm
 

willingcanuck

New member
Jul 23, 2002
84
0
0
49
Who would be stupid enough to vote for Ford again? Perhaps the same crowd who was stupid enough to vote for the Cons in the Durham by-election after the Bev Oda saga?
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,065
1
0
Apples and oranges

$3500? A trivial amount according to the Mayor's supporters and nothing to be disciplined or punished for.


I, for one disagree with them, what's your opinion FAST?
Before I state my opinion,...you have to clarify who "them" is, the mayor's supporters, or the union thieves‘.

FAST
 

Phil C. McNasty

Go Jays Go
Dec 27, 2010
28,147
6,047
113
Here's a really good article by Coren in the Sun. He's right, the punishment doesnt fit the crime.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/30/civic-snobbery-ford-a-populist-done-in-by-leftist-mediocrities

Ford a populist done in by leftist mediocrities

A great deal has been written about Toronto Mayor Rob Ford this week, and some of it, at least, has been sensible. The truth, however, can be summarized as follows.

First, he was wrong to do what he did, and should have been more careful and also apologized.

Second, the law itself is archaic and absurd, and when the punishment is ridiculously inappropriate to the crime, the law itself is by nature unjust and wrong.

Third, of course the entire enterprise was politically motivated, and those behind it had as their intention not fair play and responsibility but removing a man they detested, by any means necessary.

Other mayors, and certainly other councillors, have acted with far more contempt for process and for their colleagues, but their leftism meant friends in high and low places, and the criticism for their actions was tame if not suppressed. These people also had selfish motives, whereas Rob Ford was, in essence, forcing rich people to give money to poor people, which one would have thought was a socialist rather than conservative aspiration.

Herein lies a point. Ford is not really a conservative, and certainly not an ideological one. We auditioned him as a guest on my former television show, where we featured debates between right and left. I asked him about holidays in Marxist Cuba. “Lovely beaches, why not go, no problem.” Gay marriage. “Not for me, but nothing to do with me, I couldn’t care.”

And so on. He’s a fiscal stickler in terms of public spending, and an instinctive populist, but not a genuine conservative. Unlike most of the political left in this country, Ford is acutely comfortable with working people, ethnic minorities, hockey and football fans. Try watching his leftist critics in such circles and you’ll weep with embarrassment.

A lot of this, you see, is about snobbery. If Ford was patrician or had gone to the right schools and knew the right people, he might still have political opponents, but not the visceral haters that he has had for so long. He’s not, as it were, “one of us.”

As a Brit from a working-class family who was dropped from university onwards into the world of super-privilege, the best private schools, and hyper-elitism, I’ve always found Canadian snobbery ridiculous. These Upper Canada College, mock English accent types would be considered horribly nouveau riche and vulgar in Britain, yet live out their fantasies in Canada.

The Ford affair pretty much breaks down according to supporters and opponents. Those who like him think he’s been treated badly, those who oppose him applaud the law. Both are wrong, but the latter more so, and they now think it fashionable to place a pedantic judiciary above a democratic system.

Toronto council drowns in self-regarding blowhards, political lightweights, and ambitious mediocrities. They’re now running around like insects pretending to be sorry for a situation that delights them, in that it might advance their sorry careers.

The people spoke clearly in the election. Their man then acted foolishly, but only slightly so. An ugly coalition of leftist hacks had their way, and once again the people who seem to matter least are the voters
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,072
3,991
113
JT Kirk, it may be that english is your second language or that you have a learning or mental impairment, in which case I sincerely apologize in advance. However your post is rife with factual and/logical inaccuracies, and I would be remiss if I didn't correct them.



Factually false. Perhaps you mean "at a rate faster than the the growth in the economy"? That would be the sum of inflation, population growth, and inflation/population adjusted economic growth.



That has not been the topic that began this discussion between you and I. I said that the inflation/population adjusted increase had been 20%. You responded "????" and that my contention of a 20% increase "didn't add up". Once again I point out that your own figures equal the 20% increase I claimed.



2.65m/2.1m is 26% increase. 26% is greater than 1%.

Perhaps you meant 1% a year?

If so, the yearly increase was 1.2% from 2006 to 2011, which is greater than 1%.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/02/08/toronto-2011-census.html

Besides which, the relevance of our discussion on population growth is that you had disingenuously used the 5 year growth 2001-2006 (total 1%) as a proxy for the 7 year growth 2003-2010 which we can now see was closer to 5%. (ie 3/7 x 0.9% + 4/5 x 5.9%=approx 5.2%)

This would adjust the City of Toronto budget increase to 17%, adjusted for population and inflation. Adjusting for economic growth would further reduce the increase.

Again, I don't mind an intelligent discussion from those with different beliefs. But please don't fabricate or twist factually disprovable numbers. And if someone makes a sincere error, just say "I apologize" and we move on (that is a sign of strength, not weakness)
Seems you can't debate without resorting to an ad hominem style approach.

I take it that I must be more specific with you in my mathematics. I accept that now.

For the love of Pete, I linked to a CBC article about how population growth in Toronto proper was AVERAGING 0.9% over the period in question which roughly paralleled Miller's time in office. To do a 100 percent accurate take off, I would need population data for the exact years Miller was in office which I could not easily find with my quick google search. Never the less, the fact of the matter is that the population of Toronto proper has not been increasing dramatically in the last decade. This is an empirical fact. You seem incredibly fixated on the fact that the dates of the link that I posted do no correlate 100% to Miller’s time in office.

Furthermore, my statistic of 2% for inflation (on average) could be slightly less or slightly more each year. Don’t know, don’t care. On average it is in the ball park and my math is correct. When applied to the City of Toronto’s Operating budget during the period of time when Miller was first elected and taken to the point where he left office, you cannot rationalize the amount to which the Operating Budget increased.

I welcome you to provide your own mathematical analysis of the years in question.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,072
3,991
113
So Chicago 8.3b for 3m people, compared to Toronto 9.5b for 2.7m people. 20% lower per person for Chicago. But with a different government structure, and different services as these are two different countries.

Also, you neglected to mention that Chicago has municipal debt of $13.5b, compared to Toronto's $4b.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/cityha...to-creation-of-infrastructure-trust-fund.html

And that Chicago residential property tax rates are almost double those of Toronto, 1.25%-1.75% vs 0.78%
http://www.chicagohomeestates.com/info/taxes
http://www.toronto.ca/taxes/property_tax/tax_rates.htm
True, I didn't research debt. Chicago is in a truly bad place debt wise. I strictly stuck to budgets. Whether Chicago has to borrow money to finance its operations or not is irrelevant. At the end of the day, it's the bottom line budget that counts. I also neglected to mention crime as Chicago is THEE most violent city in the USA. But again, so what.

And comparing what services the two cities are both responsible for would be more effort than I would like to make. (You would need to hire KPMG for something like that. You of course are welcome to do your own online research in that area.)

My point is that Chicago and Toronto are comparable in size and structure (Though On the Bottom would argue that Chicago is far superior to Toronto because Chicago is home to 30 some odd fortune 500 companies and Toronto something like 6 or 7 - his words, not mine.) Chicago's current budget demonstrates that Toronto far outspends Chicago in municipal spending.

My argument would be that Toronto simply has too many municipal workers and they are not required. I believe under Miller the City of Toronto payroll was increased by some 7,000 persons. (I could be wrong on this, it is a figure I am quoting from memory, but feel free to disprove it.) Mike DelGrand at the City of Toronto as well as the City Manager have gone on record stating that the City of Toronto simply has too many employees. Hence why a buy-out package (and a generous one) was offered to City of Toronto workers about a year ago.

As far as tax rates in Toronto vs. Chicago - well, in Toronto we have Market Value Assessment. I have no idea what Chicago applies its mill rate to - perhaps you could post that information. Maybe they have MVA, or maybe they use a system like Toronto used to use in the past. (MVA was adopted in 1999 in Toronto I believe.) But it would seem that bottom line - Chicago collects a whole lot less taxes from its local residents and businesses than Toronto does, despite Chicago’s higher population and despite its higher mill rate.

Also, Toronto collects a far greater percentage of its taxes from actual property taxes than Chicago does.






Link:
 

5hummer

Active member
Sep 6, 2008
3,787
5
38
Wow!? As of Saturday 10am-ish, poll is 50/50.

Ford is quite the polarizing figure, I do admit I will miss the childish antics by a (ahem) politician ....
 

Don

Active member
Aug 23, 2001
6,288
10
38
Toronto
I consider myself somewhat conservative but Ford needs to go. Yes he was pretty much attacked by the left who jumped on everything he did which was really annoying (like getting on him for getting take out KFC... I mean REALLY??). But he really brought a lot of it on himself too.

That said, I shudder at the alternatives. Chow? Vaughn? Geez! I don't know who I would vote for.
 

Rockslinger

Banned
Apr 24, 2005
32,773
0
0
Too many darn posts to read them all. Yes, I will.

Rob is a bit rough around the edges but I think he has a good heart and wants to do what is best for Toronto. Of course, the unions and their political lackeys are out to get him. (Rob also brings a bit of excitement to a dull City Hall.)

As an unrepentant supporter of private enterprise, I'm proud to say my garbage is picked up by a private contractor.
 

Don Draper

Cufflinks & Cognac
Nov 24, 2009
6,364
644
113
Beautifully said and wholeheartedly supported, my esteemed colleague.

Again, I don't mind an intelligent discussion from those with different beliefs. But please don't fabricate or twist factually disprovable numbers. And if someone makes a sincere error, just say "I apologize" and we move on (that is a sign of strength, not weakness)

[SIZE=+2]Hear, Hear![/SIZE]
 

JackBurton

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2012
1,975
814
113
Too many darn posts to read them all. Yes, I will.

Rob is a bit rough around the edges but I think he has a good heart and wants to do what is best for Toronto. Of course, the unions and their political lackeys are out to get him. (Rob also brings a bit of excitement to a dull City Hall.)

As an unrepentant supporter of private enterprise, I'm proud to say my garbage is picked up by a private contractor.
He doesn't have a good heart, he's a criminal. When things run smoother at city hall when you aren't there, that's an excellent sign that you are incompetent
 

Richard.TO

Active member
Jun 19, 2012
554
27
28
The people of Toronto don't need a waterfront monorail or ferris wheel and it's good that his attempt to fuck over the Portlands was quashed.
The people of Toronto don't need someone who promises new subway lines without figuring out a way to pay for them.
The people of Toronto don't need libraries shut down just because the mayor doesn't use reference material for anything.
The people of Toronto don't need road repair crews to drop what they're doing and re-pave the road in front of Deco Labels in time for that company's 50th anniversary celebration.
The people of Toronto don't need to kick people off rush hour TTC buses to go and pick up some high school football players.
The people of Toronto don't need police to waste their time responding to an emergency call to go and talk to Mary Walsh in Ford's driveway.
Here Here! Well said.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts