UNSC passes resolution demanding immediate ceasefire in Gaza

[Frankfooter]

This must really piss you off.
You've been clear that demanding hostages be released for a temporary ceasefire is demanding Hamas give up its leverage and completely unacceptable.

I expect it pisses you off more.

For the US to allow this resolution to pass is massive, even though it has issues.
I back it for that reason.

I expect you're more pissed about protesters targeting Genocide Joe at his biggest fundraiser of the year.

Israel probably could have used it get the hostages back but Netanyahu instead seems intent on maintaining the genocide to keep is career alive.
That leaves Israel as a rogue state, ignoring the UNSC, ignoring today's new additional protocols from the ICJ and continuing to starve children to death.
Biden is left trying to argue that anyone can ignore UNSC resolutions and doubling down on the genocide when he had an easy out.

This will be the end of zionism as a movement.
It make take a few years, but its coming.

This was Belgium today.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1773427020858286498

 

[Valcazar]

I expect it pisses you off more.

Why?

For the US to allow this resolution to pass is massive, even though it has issues.
I back it for that reason.

So you back this - even though you disagree with it - just because it shows the US doing something?

I expect you're more pissed about protesters targeting Genocide Joe at his biggest fundraiser of the year.

Not sure why you would expect that I'd be pissed about that.

Israel probably could have used it get the hostages back but Netanyahu instead seems intent on maintaining the genocide to keep is career alive.

He's a fucking shit show - of course he isn't going to respect it.
You yourself have said that anything that puts a time limit on the ceasefire and demands Hamas return hostages should be rejected by Hamas because it destroys their leverage.
With Hamas not likely to comply, Bibi is going to take advantage to blame them for not complying and do what he wants to.

Isn't that situation exactly why you've said the previous cease fire proposals were to be rejected?
Anything that required Hamas to give up its leverage was a bad idea.

 

[wigglee]

Odds of Hamas listening to the UNSC and "immediately and unconditionally" releasing all their hostages? 0%
Odds of Frank caring about Hamas not complying? 0%


It would not take 2 weeks for Hamas to release the hostages. It would take less than a day as all they need to do is send out and order and tell Israel when they can expect the release. The only cases it would take longer is for the hostages in such poor heath condition.

Odds that Basketcase would put the blame on Netanyahoo for the genocide....zero. "Hamas made him do it!"

 

[Frankfooter]

He's a fucking shit show - of course he isn't going to respect it.
You yourself have said that anything that puts a time limit on the ceasefire and demands Hamas return hostages should be rejected by Hamas because it destroys their leverage.
With Hamas not likely to comply, Bibi is going to take advantage to blame them for not complying and do what he wants to.

Isn't that situation exactly why you've said the previous cease fire proposals were to be rejected?
Anything that required Hamas to give up its leverage was a bad idea.

If your reasoning is as black and white as yours is, I could see why you'd make that argument.
Its along the lines of 'rump will destroy the US', so all evil that keeps that from happening is therefore acceptable.

This wasn't a negotiated ceasefire, this was the international community getting Biden to allow a UNSC resolution against Israel to pass. Biden immediately stepped back and said Israel doesn't have to abide and continues to support Israel. That it was unfavourable to Palestinians isn't as important as the power of now having the entire world stand against the continuation of the genocide.

If you combine that with the new ICJ rulings, the UN report saying Israel is committing genocide, which the MSM is ignoring, and this UNSC resolution it leaves Israel as entirely isolated from the world in the same way North Korea has been. That leaves Biden trying to argue that UNSC resolutions do not need to be obeyed and enforced, which puts the US on trial while Biden faces even larger protests.

Israel is now a country that the world sees is starving children to death despite calls from the UNSC and the ICJ.
How does zionism as a movement ever recover from this?

 

[basketcase]

Odds that Basketcase would put the blame on Netanyahoo for the genocide....zero. "Hamas made him do it!"

Blame Netanyahu for many things? Absolutely. Believing this genocide nonsense. Sorry, not going to accept invented definitions.

 

[basketcase]

...

This wasn't a negotiated ceasefire, this was the international community getting Biden to allow a UNSC resolution against Israel to pass. ...

As I said:
Odds of Hamas listening to the UNSC and "immediately and unconditionally" releasing all their hostages? 0%
Odds of Frank caring about Hamas not complying? 0%

 

[Valcazar]

If your reasoning is as black and white as yours is, I could see why you'd make that argument.

That's been your reasoning.
Are you no longer saying that Hamas should reject any ceasefire that demanded their hostages and was also temporary?
What made you change your mind on that?
It seemed pretty core to your position.

This wasn't a negotiated ceasefire, this was the international community getting Biden to allow a UNSC resolution against Israel to pass.

None of the other ceasefire proposals were negotiated either.
I am assuming you mean negotiated between Hamas and Israel, not that the UN members negotiated among themselves, which this and all the other ones were.

So again, what is different about this one that you accept it but insisted that the others had to be rejected if they put these demands on Hamas?

 

[Frankfooter]

Blame Netanyahu for many things? Absolutely. Believing this genocide nonsense. Sorry, not going to accept invented definitions.

Do you think Germans in WWII told themselves there were no death camps?
Do you think there were outside reports that they ignored?

Or do you think they tried to play willfully ignorant?

 

[Frankfooter]

As I said:
Odds of Hamas listening to the UNSC and "immediately and unconditionally" releasing all their hostages? 0%
Odds of Frank caring about Hamas not complying? 0%

You have to have a ceasefire first before hostages on both sides can be returned.
Odds of Netanyahu stopping while Biden allows him got continue? 0%
Odds of basketcase calling out Israel for starving children to death? 0%

 

[Frankfooter]

That's been your reasoning.
Are you no longer saying that Hamas should reject any ceasefire that demanded their hostages and was also temporary?
What made you change your mind on that?
It seemed pretty core to your position.

In a negotiation, yes.
This wasn't a negotiation it was an third party, the UNSC, demanding a ceasefire.

None of the other ceasefire proposals were negotiated either.
I am assuming you mean negotiated between Hamas and Israel, not that the UN members negotiated among themselves, which this and all the other ones were.

So again, what is different about this one that you accept it but insisted that the others had to be rejected if they put these demands on Hamas?

There was a negotiated ceasefire where Hamas and Israel both stopped fighting and hostages on both sides were returned.
That ceasefire had a set time limit, with Hamas offering to extend it and continue releasing hostages. Netanyahu refused.
After that ceasefire Israel re-arrested a large number of the Palestinian hostages they released and resumed the genocide.
During the truce no aid was allowed in, no foreign journalists, no supplies.

What goal would a temporary ceasefire achieve if Hamas released all the hostages and Israel just returned to genocide after their release?

Israel kills dozens of academics, destroys every university in the Gaza Strip

 

[Valcazar]

In a negotiation, yes.
This wasn't a negotiation it was an third party, the UNSC, demanding a ceasefire.

So should Hamas obey it?

Or are you saying "Everyone knows no one would ever obey a UN-ordered ceasefire anyway if they didn't negotiate it, so the only important thing is who is blamed in it, how it is worded, and who voted for it" ?

There was a negotiated ceasefire where Hamas and Israel both stopped fighting and hostages on both sides were returned.
That ceasefire had a set time limit, with Hamas offering to extend it and continue releasing hostages. Netanyahu refused.
After that ceasefire Israel re-arrested a large number of the Palestinian hostages they released and resumed the genocide.
During the truce no aid was allowed in, no foreign journalists, no supplies.

What goal would a temporary ceasefire achieve if Hamas released all the hostages and Israel just returned to genocide after their release?

So you think Hamas should disobey this and any other ceasefire coming from the UN, then?

 

[wigglee]

Blame Netanyahu for many things? Absolutely. Believing this genocide nonsense. Sorry, not going to accept invented definitions.

32000 killed ( mostly women, children, elderly ), most of the infrastructure in ruins, and a million people being starved as a tactic of war ( or war crime).....yep...GENOCIDE. If someone did that to Israel you'd be the first to scream GENOCIDE!

 

[shack]

You have to have a ceasefire first before hostages on both sides can be returned.

Hamas needs to return the hostages before there can be a ceasefire.

If you don't think so, it means that you want the fighting to continue which means you want more Palestinians to die. And that is why I, and others, have been saying for months about you. You are simply confirming it. Why would you not want to save more Palis simply by returning the hostages?

 

[shack]

..GENOCIDE. If someone did that to Israel you'd be the first to scream GENOCIDE!

Instead we are screaming Incestuous Genocide. Hamas is intentionally leading their own people to their deaths.

 

[Frankfooter]

So should Hamas obey it?

Or are you saying "Everyone knows no one would ever obey a UN-ordered ceasefire anyway if they didn't negotiate it, so the only important thing is who is blamed in it, how it is worded, and who voted for it" ?

Yes, both Israel and Hamas should obey UNSC resolutions.
There should have been a ceasefire followed by Israel abiding by the ICJ ruling and allowing all aid through to stop the imminent starvation of half a million people.

Why do you only ask this question to Hamas?

So you think Hamas should disobey this and any other ceasefire coming from the UN, then?

Its telling that you only ever question whether Hamas should have to do anything. You don't ask whether Israel should abide by the UNSC resolution, whether they should abide by the ICJ ruling or whether Biden should stop supporting Israel and aiding genocide.

You only question about what Hamas should do as if they were in control of the situation.

Same way you think supporting genocide is 'pragmatic' because of a US election. You seem to be trying to appear neutral, but these comments detail your position quite clearly.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1773938419883786617

 

[Valcazar]

Yes, both Israel and Hamas should obey UNSC resolutions.

Good to hear.

There should have been a ceasefire followed by Israel abiding by the ICJ ruling and allowing all aid through to stop the imminent starvation of half a million people.

Good that is what you want, but that isn't what the UNSC said in their resolution.

Why do you only ask this question to Hamas?

I'm asking you Frankie.
Not Hamas.
I know it's become a kind of meme here to claim it, but I don't think you are a member of Hamas.
I'm not sure why you seem confused on that issue.

Its telling that you only ever question whether Hamas should have to do anything.

I already know you want Israel to stop its military action.
I asked about Hamas here because your position now seemed to be in contradiction with your position earlier.

I did not expect you to say " Israel and Hamas should obey UNSC resolutions." when that means Hamas needs to give up all its hostages for a ceasefire that only lasts through Ramadan.

 

[Frankfooter]

Good that is what you want, but that isn't what the UNSC said in their resolution.

I didn't say it was part of the UNSC resolution, just that Israel and Hamas should abide by the UNSC resolution and Israel should also abide by both the ICJ rulings, which means 'preventing killing Palestinians' and allowing all aid through to stop the famine.

I'm asking you Frankie.
Not Hamas.
I know it's become a kind of meme here to claim it, but I don't think you are a member of Hamas.
I'm not sure why you seem confused on that issue.

And I answered and responded back to ask why in these threads do you only seem to discuss about limits to Hamas' actions?

I already know you want Israel to stop its military action.
I asked about Hamas here because your position now seemed to be in contradiction with your position earlier.

I did not expect you to say " Israel and Hamas should obey UNSC resolutions." when that means Hamas needs to give up all its hostages for a ceasefire that only lasts through Ramadan.

I've been consistent.
There should be a ceasefire, both sides should be held to the law, the occupation and apartheid needs to end and equal rights applied to all those living under Israeli rule.

Your view appears to be that supporting genocide is 'pragmatic' and that only people not as politically smart as you would think otherwise, because there is an election this year. Does support of genocide require elections all the time, is this a special election or do you just need to demonize the opponent enough to justify supporting genocide?

Now that the UN has reported Israel is committing genocide, Israel is ignoring the second ICJ ruling, this makes both Israel and Biden liable for genocide. Is it still more 'pragmatic' to support a war criminal in the act of committing genocide to keep someone you think might be bad for democracy out of power?

 

[Valcazar]

I've been consistent.
There should be a ceasefire, both sides should be held to the law, the occupation and apartheid needs to end and equal rights applied to all those living under Israeli rule.

But then how does a ceasefire order from the UN in which Hamas gives up its hostages and Israel only has to stop shooting for Ramadan help?
Israel is then going to go back to shooting and Hamas will have lost all leverage.
And Israel will be able to say that they obeyed the ceasefire resolution to the letter.

Neither you nor I think Israel is actually going to stop once the hostages are released, do we?

 

[wigglee]

Instead we are screaming Incestuous Genocide. Hamas is intentionally leading their own people to their deaths.

Wrong.... Netanyahoo is doing this all on his own. The 1200 Hamas killed does not warrant the 32000 or the million starving. Does that sound like an appropriate response to you? It is literally gross overkill. What would you say if a large hostile power did this to Israel? You too would be screaming GENOCIDE at the top of your lungs.

 

[Frankfooter]

But then how does a ceasefire order from the UN in which Hamas gives up its hostages and Israel only has to stop shooting for Ramadan help?
Israel is then going to go back to shooting and Hamas will have lost all leverage.
And Israel will be able to say that they obeyed the ceasefire resolution to the letter.

Neither you nor I think Israel is actually going to stop once the hostages are released, do we?

Now that Israel is in direct contravention of a UNSC resolution other countries will find it harder to support them at all.
The NDP passed a bill here saying that ICC and ICJ rulings must be abided and we are seeing legal challenges here and elsewhere.
Israel refusing to abide by the UNSC is another stone in the wall of upcoming sanctions.
South African apartheid was ended through boycotts that all started this way as well. Its stupidly slow, but it works.

Had Israel ceased fire and both sides started releasing hostages I expect few would have been released before the end of Ramadan, but even if they had that would presumably also meant aid and journalists were allowed in which could have slowed the famine they are now experiencing.

Netanyahu will continue the genocide until he's turfed from office, hopefully on Monday with the vote on conscriptment, or until Biden puts his foot down and says he'll end all US support and legal protections, but so far all he's done is announce more bombs for the genocide.

The famine has started, people are starving to death. That will end zionism in the long term but not save those dying now.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1774182099097883111