Teachers Taking "Sick Days" - Anyone want to defend this one?
- Thread starter TeasePlease
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An interesting string of posts...obviously two completely different viewpoints just like the rest of Ontario. This whole teacher thing over the past year has me upset as well but I think that the underlying problem here is not specifically the teacher, I believe its the management of the teachers that is the root cause (together with the collective agreement as its often a union agreement which dictates how employees can be managed). Many people give the teachers way too much credit, that they are some upstanding pillars of the community who are steeped in strong morals and values and will teach these to the children in order to make them better human beings. I think that we all WANT this to be true in our perfect little worlds but in reality, this is just not the case. While there are definately some that do fall into this category, there are also a significant percentage who do not, they are just regular employees like you would find in any company out there. And like any company out there, they have a certain number of employees who have the mindset that they are entitled to far more than what they are getting and will do whatever they can to screw their employer for more. You don't think private companies have this issue of sick days with their salaried staff? Of course they do.....however its in the management of the problem where there is a stark difference between the public school system and a private company. In the public system, teachers are fraudulently taking sick days...no other way to put it. The sick days they get are not paid days off to be included as part of their total compensation package as has been suggested by a couple of posters here...they are paid days to be taken WHEN YOU ARE SICK so as to not financially penalize you but to entice you to stay at home and not infect the rest of the workplace while you are sick...the same reasoning as if you were a private sector employee. If an employee draws on one of those sick days when they are not sick, then it is fraud no matter how you slice it or justify it in your own mind. The major difference however is that when this happens in the public school system, instead of dealing with the specific teacher the board just hires more substitute teachers to take their places, thereby adding more cost to the system. In the private sector, the employee in question would have to answer to this, with ramifications being from a warning up to dismissal, with a myriad of different consequences in the middle. In the end, the employees will do what they will in both public and private sectors, however in the public world, proper employee management just doesn't happen so the teachers are literally free to do whatever the fuck they want. Blame the teachers?? absolutely not, blame their managers (VP and Principal) for not addressing the issues and handing out discipline when warranted.
Now there are a couple of issues on top of this.....VP's and Principals should be the ones handing out this discipline but in their defense, what mgmt training have they ever received? Most private managers have went to business school for years to learn how to manage people and even at that, not all of them are good at it so why should we expect a school VP, who was trained to be a teacher, to be able to manage their teachers. I know a few VPs and Principals personally and I wouldn't have them manage anything in my company...not their fault, they are nice people and try hard but just don't have the training necessary to do this part of the job. Who is to blame for this? Again not the teacher, not the VP or Princ, the school board is the one who make the decisions to put completely unqualified people in as managers at the school level and they need to share in this blame.
Third is the union contract.....yes there are a number of items in there that for the most part restrict the ability for a manager to actually manage a teacher and provide the level of discipline that is often necessary to address certain issues like abuse of sick days. Who is to blame for allowing such a contract to be agreed to? Again not the teachers, not the VP's and Princ, but the top levels in the school board and politicians (Ministry of Ed) who are agreeing to these ridiculous contracts.
So like most of you, I'm completely fed up with the education system as well and while my natural reaction is to blame the teachers for being unethical, entitled babies, the reality is that they are just like every other employee out there in the work force and its the lack of management from various levels in the education system that is the root cause for the problems we are seeing.
End of rant.....I feel better now.
Now there are a couple of issues on top of this.....VP's and Principals should be the ones handing out this discipline but in their defense, what mgmt training have they ever received? Most private managers have went to business school for years to learn how to manage people and even at that, not all of them are good at it so why should we expect a school VP, who was trained to be a teacher, to be able to manage their teachers. I know a few VPs and Principals personally and I wouldn't have them manage anything in my company...not their fault, they are nice people and try hard but just don't have the training necessary to do this part of the job. Who is to blame for this? Again not the teacher, not the VP or Princ, the school board is the one who make the decisions to put completely unqualified people in as managers at the school level and they need to share in this blame.
Third is the union contract.....yes there are a number of items in there that for the most part restrict the ability for a manager to actually manage a teacher and provide the level of discipline that is often necessary to address certain issues like abuse of sick days. Who is to blame for allowing such a contract to be agreed to? Again not the teachers, not the VP's and Princ, but the top levels in the school board and politicians (Ministry of Ed) who are agreeing to these ridiculous contracts.
So like most of you, I'm completely fed up with the education system as well and while my natural reaction is to blame the teachers for being unethical, entitled babies, the reality is that they are just like every other employee out there in the work force and its the lack of management from various levels in the education system that is the root cause for the problems we are seeing.
End of rant.....I feel better now.
I think you're confusing hiring teachers to be on the substitute list, which is being done, and hiring full time teachers. But I can't really make out your point, and it doesn't call to mind anything I've read on this matter.
Herein lies the problem. Time off is time off. Bereavement leave? No one actually died? Who the fuck cares? Let's grab some beers and go to the cottage!
There should be no sick days period. Almost all of the private sector has no sick day privileges. And since the taxpayers are on the hook for these paid sick days that's even more reason to get rid of them. If youre sick and need to take the day off, oh well you lose a days pay.
OK. I'll defend the teachers. Previously, the teachers had a legal, contractual right to bank sick days. Whether you agree that they should have been able to do so or not, they still had that right. Now that right has been lost (traded away ... pick terminology you like). However, legally, teachers can still use the sick days they already have banked, so long as they use them by a certain date. In other words, it is perfectly legal for teachers to use banked sick days. Those of you who are disgusted by this are essentially asking the teachers to make a sacrifice - let their banked sick days lapse without receiving anything in exchange.
Most small companies do not have an official sick day policy. However, most small company employers do pay their employees when they take sick days. That is one way to build morale and loyalty. Your suggestion is fine if you want to encourage an adversarial workplace where everyone is looking out for themselves and no one makes any additional effort for others. This is not optimal in small, knowledge-based companies where employees and employers both have to be willing to be flexible to get the job done.
No payment for sick days? No employees willing to stay until 10 minutes after the end of their working day to make sure the job is done right.
No, we're asking them to act like regular functioning members of the work force. The fact that they can be sick for 12 days - in most cased fraudulently - out of the 9 months per 12 they actually work and still get paid is an advantage over many non-union salaried and especially hourly workers. The fact that they're clamoring en masse to make sure they use all 12 in advance of an 8 week vacation at the expense of the students is fucking despicable. That's my opinion and my wife - a teacher - shares that opinion.
While it's possible to fake bereavement leave, depending on the workplace, it's not something you can get away with on a regular basis. About the third time you need off for your mother's funeral, someone is going to take notice. Maternity leave is a bit more difficult to fake.
One place I worked we got our sick days back at the beginning of the year. Before the beginning of March, about 10% had used them all up, before the end of June only 10% had more than one day left. We weren't able to bank the days, or sell them back, so most would use them up early. One person in particular you could use to predict the weather. If he called in sick it was either snowing or raining.
It's been at least 20 years since I've seen any company that required proof of illness for using a sick day, and I would no longer work for a company that required proof. If I've got the flu or food poisoning I generally don't need a doctor visit. All I need is plenty of fluids, rest and an available toilet. Trying to police sick day usage isn't cost effective. The best solution is to find a way to discourage use of those days, or take them away entirely.
Where in Canada are you getting your numbers from?
The ottawa-carelton grid for *elementary* school teachers lists the starting salary at $44,930 for a newbie. The lowest grade of teacher with 10 years of experience gets $70,982. The grid tops out at $92,821, depending on your skill level, designations, and salary category.
High school teachers can exceed $100K in salary.
I'm pretty sure that teachers currently receive higher salaries than many engineers (manufacturing isn't doing well currently), at least some doctors (especially when expenses and school fees are included), and quite a few other skilled groups that one could come up with. I know that some engineers and some doctors will easily out-earn teachers, but those engineers and doctors will be working long hours. As a group, teachers in Ontario are very well paid, for many less hours of work.
fire them, fire them all I say!! privatize the entire education system, start them at 10 dollars an hour and let them work their way up to minimum wage, school vouchers for everyone, and the ones that dont like it well off with their heads!!!
I work with some people who haven't had a sick day in years. They don't work, they don't get paid. I imagine if the sick days were available, many more people would be taking longer week ends off work.
if someone offered me paid sick days i would take them in a heart beat and if i was able to save them to retire early i would do that as well. if the rules got changed and i had to use them or lose them you're fucking right i would use them. is it right for the kids ? no of course not.
everyone cuts their own deal and it seems to me after reading almost no posts in this thread that a lot of you are jealous they got a better deal than you.
everyone cuts their own deal and it seems to me after reading almost no posts in this thread that a lot of you are jealous they got a better deal than you.
The average teacher makes $83K in Ont
They are in the top 10% of all Canadians in terms of salary
Their total compensation and the cost to tax payer is much higher
you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
The education system in Ont is an extremely expensive mess and it high time something is done to correct it
