New min wage and tipping
- Thread starter daboy
- Start date
It's incorrect to say that any observation about people based on their culture is racist. We really aren't all exactly alike and there are differences and we should talk about them.Stop me if I'm using words you don't understand. By definition, making an assumption about an individual based on the colour of their skin is racist.
Skin colour is not a cultural difference. For example, a black man you meet may be Jamaican, he may be Nigerian, he may be British, he may be from East York, and he could be from any number of other places each with a different culture. When you assume that the Black man will behave a certain way, you have allowed prejudice to cloud your judgment.
Those who don't understand this fact should sit quietly on the sidelines of this discussion until they learn the meaning of racism.
It becomes a problem when you start denying people opportunities based on their race, when in fact they were just as qualified as someone with a different skin color. Things like judging a job applicant based on their skin color are examples of systemic discrimination.
But that doesn't mean we can't talk and joke about the differences between us, and in some cases we need to discuss those differences in order to resolve problems.
Example: sometimes systemic discrimination destroys families and communities to the point where they perpetuste self destructive behavior. It's important to talk about that SO IT CAN BE FIXED. Suicide in native communities can't be fixed without discussing broken families and cycles of poverty and violence that have origins specific to the brutal history those communities endured.
Which is quite different than talking about differences TO JUSTIFY PREJUDICE. I believe it comes down to what's in your heart: is your motive to help or to hate?
It's a complex topic.
Canadian wait staff earn minimum wage.It's simple. It is part of the social contract we agree to when we enter a service restaurant.
The restaurant pays the base wage for the server but the understanding and expectation is that the customer will top up that wage. The amount of the top-up depends of the quality of the service. 15% (BEFORE TAX!!) is the standard amount if the service is good but not remarkable. The member above who brags that he never tips over 12% is demonstrating a lack of class and that he does not understand the social contract.
It is understood that customers will vary upwards or downwards based on the service quality but, since it's on the honour system, there is a responsibility to be fair. A tip under 10% in a full service (pun not intended) restaurant should only happen if the quality of the service was really below par - for reasons that the server can control. This should not mean punishing a server for being too busy or if the kitchen messed up; you should note what the server did to try to mitigate the issues he or she could not control. If the waiter is slow and you see them gossiping with the bartender when you are waiting that is the waiter's fault. If the drinks are slow because the bar is slammed, don't punish your server.
One trend I don't like is that card and mobile payment machines now offer tip options that often start at 15 or 20% and are calculated AFTER tax. This is an unfair grab and is just as classless as under-tipping. The restaurant is seeking to get the customer to over-subsidize the server!
In some American cities, I've seen payment terminals that have tip options STARTING at 20 or 25%! That's just crazy.
American wait staff only earn half (or less) of minimum wage. They truly depend on tips.
American wait staff generally despise Canadians because we are viewed as "cheap tippers" because we tend to tip 15% as is the custom here.
I can't think of many buffet style restaurants but most of them include drinks (well pop / water / juice etc)One you still need to upsell on drinks if possible. And two the server actually makes more trips to the table to pick up plates etc, change cutlery.
Only upsell would be alcohol
I am skeptical of the extra trips (unless it is a table of fatsos)
Normal restaurant
1- intro yourself etc, offer to get drinks
2- bring salads/bread etc
3- bring drinks
4- bring entree (not always)
5- bring main course
6- bring after meal desert or coffee or etc
7- bring bill
8- bring machine to pay the bill
So we are talking at a bare minimum 7 to 8 trips is a normal place
How many trips to a buffet table can they possibly make?
Buffet place
1- intro yourself (possibly order drinks, some places are self serve)
2 to 5 - exchange dirty plates / cutlery (3 trips to feed at the trough I think is plenty for most people)
6- bring bill
7- bring payment machine
Lots of dining restaurants no app, maybe salad. Place like Jack Astors Beer and Wings and done.I can't think of many buffet style restaurants but most of them include drinks (well pop / water / juice etc)
Only upsell would be alcohol
I am skeptical of the extra trips (unless it is a table of fatsos)
Normal restaurant
1- intro yourself etc, offer to get drinks
2- bring salads/bread etc
3- bring drinks
4- bring entree (not always)
5- bring main course
6- bring after meal desert or coffee or etc
7- bring bill
8- bring machine to pay the bill
So we are talking at a bare minimum 7 to 8 trips is a normal place
How many trips to a buffet table can they possibly make?
Buffet place
1- intro yourself (possibly order drinks, some places are self serve)
2 to 5 - exchange dirty plates / cutlery (3 trips to feed at the trough I think is plenty for most people)
6- bring bill
7- bring payment machine
A lot less people order dessert then you think(i tried to discourage it in fact. Lose that 20-30 minutes and get an extra table turn as a result).
I worked both. The buffet was faster paced. More trips(trust me on this, you make more trips) and in fact smaller bills as well (buffets at that time were about the same price as a steak entre). But also larger sections(maybe 20 covers).
Point being different styles. But lots of work. No break as a rule either.
I agree that service has gone downhill. In some cases badly. I was a top server and I trainer as well. No way about half of these servers would pass muster where I used to work these days. But I don't blame the servers. I blame a disposable culture and lowered standards. It used to be a profession. Ability to do many things. Product knowledge. Ability to read tables and enhance the dining experience.
And I also blame the population who insisted on casual dress, a short attention span, damn phones, generic chains, and mediocre food. And too damn many kids given license to ruin dining for others.
All of the above why I'm out.
As a server who worked every floor imaginable for 20 years I can say with certainty that Black people are the worst tippers period. I don't know why but they are.
We are talking 5% or less as a rule. Next worst were Chinese at pretty much 10% across the board but they are very easy to take care of, in and out quickly to turn the table as well.
Black people would be slow, difficult, demanding, condescending on top of it. Fortunately they are also too cheap to dine out much so tables of them were rare. And my hostesses liked me so they would steer them to other sections when possible.
Best tables ever were American business guys. One table of four could make my night.
And that's just an observation. I still served them to the best of my ability because occasionally they would surprise me(and I take pride in my work).
It is what it is. Could be cultural. Australians were the same. I would put it down to ignorance but if you are traveling regularly then you should pick up and defer to local customs.
As a former server of over 20 years this is spot on.
As a server it is important to know which customers to spend your time and attention as it can effect your bottom line significantly. In general the darker the skin the worse the tip and males tip more than females. Some places charge as high as 8-9% tip out so if you get a group of young black females there is a high chance you might be paying to serve them and they will break your balls. Of course there are exceptions ,Germans are horrible tippers and will expect the moon. Koreans are the best out of the Asian community and Filipino the worst. I could write a book how accurate these generalizations are.
I won't get into the "is tipping right or wrong" debate - I think it is largely a cultural thing and something that has become a bit excessive in North America. But as a former server of over ten years in some very good and very expensive restaurants - being a good server requires many of the same traits that are required to be successful at any job - a good attitude, a strong work ethic, time management skills, reliability. There are many, many people who flame out or can't do it - it is an extremely stressful and physically demanding profession. Yes of course there are other physically demanding professions, but to be on your feet for six to eight hours at a time and constantly in customer service mode is taxing. You may think that it is "just punching orders in on a computer" or "just delivering food to a table" - but try and do that when you have eight tables at one time, two of them are extremely VIP, one has just ordered a $500 bottle of wine that has to be retrieved from the cellar and opened in a timely manner and one is flagging you down because their steak is slightly overcooked. There is a lot that more that goes into it between inputting an order and processing a payment. Those that can't do it fail early, and often spectacularly,
Does the guy at Tim Hortons work just as hard as any waiter? Absolutely. Maybe harder. But in a labour market of supply and demand - and one in which working at a fine dining establishment (where the most money is) requires, generally, a very good grasp of the English language - most people working at the better restaurants out there would not be doing it if they didn't get paid well for it. If you went to say a twenty dollar standard wage, all of the so called "professional" servers would be gone.
Anyway a lot of this can be said about nearly any job. Do many real estate agents really deserve what they make? Hey, they are just running around, meeting people, getting houses ready to show and serving canapes. So they passed a real estate exam. Big whoop.
Overall Toronto's fine dining scene is nothing like a real world class city. There I can assure you that the servers at the top restaurants are easily pulling in between 150-200k a year. There are a few restaurants in Toronto where you could push 100k, but most waiters working in good establishments are probably more in the 50-70k range. Still a reasonably decent living.
Does the guy at Tim Hortons work just as hard as any waiter? Absolutely. Maybe harder. But in a labour market of supply and demand - and one in which working at a fine dining establishment (where the most money is) requires, generally, a very good grasp of the English language - most people working at the better restaurants out there would not be doing it if they didn't get paid well for it. If you went to say a twenty dollar standard wage, all of the so called "professional" servers would be gone.
Anyway a lot of this can be said about nearly any job. Do many real estate agents really deserve what they make? Hey, they are just running around, meeting people, getting houses ready to show and serving canapes. So they passed a real estate exam. Big whoop.
Overall Toronto's fine dining scene is nothing like a real world class city. There I can assure you that the servers at the top restaurants are easily pulling in between 150-200k a year. There are a few restaurants in Toronto where you could push 100k, but most waiters working in good establishments are probably more in the 50-70k range. Still a reasonably decent living.
^^^^^
How many times did we see melt downs of girls on the floor in our time with full blown crying.
Or guys heading to the back and punching a wall in frustration.
Unless you have worked on a busy floor on a Saturday night with a wait, and having a bad night.......
Look this isn't rocket science. But it is a skilled trade. Most learn that the hard way. And many just don't cut it.
How many times did we see melt downs of girls on the floor in our time with full blown crying.
Or guys heading to the back and punching a wall in frustration.
Unless you have worked on a busy floor on a Saturday night with a wait, and having a bad night.......
Look this isn't rocket science. But it is a skilled trade. Most learn that the hard way. And many just don't cut it.
As a former server of over 20 years this is spot on.
As a server it is important to know which customers to spend your time and attention as it can effect your bottom line significantly. In general the darker the skin the worse the tip and males tip more than females. Some places charge as high as 8-9% tip out so if you get a group of young black females there is a high chance you might be paying to serve them and they will break your balls. Of course there are exceptions ,Germans are horrible tippers and will expect the moon. Koreans are the best out of the Asian community and Filipino the worst. I could write a book how accurate these generalizations are.
Despite this being your personal experience and doing this for over 20 years, you'll be accused of being a racist in this thread for stating these factual observations...lol.
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It sounds like you worked more of chain joints than an actual restaurantLots of dining restaurants no app, maybe salad. Place like Jack Astors Beer and Wings and done.
A lot less people order dessert then you think(i tried to discourage it in fact. Lose that 20-30 minutes and get an extra table turn as a result).
Since we were discussing family dining or a dinner date I doubt most would get beer & wings as a meal...
Maybe its just me tho
Fair enough. I just have an image of a group of seniors or a group of teens sitting around talking more than eatingI worked both. The buffet was faster paced. More trips(trust me on this, you make more trips) and in fact smaller bills as well (buffets at that time were about the same price as a steak entre). But also larger sections(maybe 20 covers).
A variety of restaurant styles. One Chain long term. Two others short. One Chain Hotel short, one Independent Hotel Long. I worked two jobs a lot (one lunches, one dinners). Also worked for maybe 10 family owned places. Even did boat charters.It sounds like you worked more of chain joints than an actual restaurant
Since we were discussing family dining or a dinner date I doubt most would get beer & wings as a meal...
Maybe its just me tho
Fair enough. I just have an image of a group of seniors or a group of teens sitting around talking more than eating
They all have their pros and cons.
A also bartended a few places as well. Beer and wings on a game night is quite common.
The biggest users of Buffet are business(day usually to take the staff out) and family (night). Usually because it's easier to please everyone then a particular restaurant.
Teens? Starbucks is their new mall. Buffets are too expensive for hanging around. Seniors? In early out early.
I could spend all day discussing the various dining habits of groups by age, ethnicity, sex......it's amazing how so many fall under stereotypes. I was money hungry and have a duck's back for any frustration and on the floor so I did better than most.
But I also happily paid off the hosts a bit extra as well......amazing how many tables of bad tippers types ended up in other sections.
techncally true but logically false.Canadian wait staff earn minimum wage.
Canadian wait staff earn the provincial minimum wage for wait staff which is lower than the standard minimum wage.
But I also happily paid off the hosts a bit extra as well......amazing how many tables of bad tippers types ended up in other sections.
You should be shame of yourself, your action was disgusting.
That's funny......You should be shame of yourself, your action was disgusting.
Unfortunately that's the game sometimes. In higher end placed you pay off the Maitre'ds for better sections and scheduling(thats management btw).
Hey I could have had it(and did in places where it's the only criteria) on merit. But that isn't the way it always works.
And I liked making money a thank you.
In case you are really this obliviousGotta love how Blue-Spheroid and TeeJay avoided my question...lol.
I never avoided your question, I answered it WITHOUT your racist generalizations (you know the one about all blacks you observed were cheap and all)
Go back read again
Try working as an iron worker.I won't get into the "is tipping right or wrong" debate - I think it is largely a cultural thing and something that has become a bit excessive in North America. But as a former server of over ten years in some very good and very expensive restaurants - being a good server requires many of the same traits that are required to be successful at any job - a good attitude, a strong work ethic, time management skills, reliability. There are many, many people who flame out or can't do it - it is an extremely stressful and physically demanding profession. Yes of course there are other physically demanding professions, but to be on your feet for six to eight hours at a time and constantly in customer service mode is taxing. You may think that it is "just punching orders in on a computer" or "just delivering food to a table" - but try and do that when you have eight tables at one time, two of them are extremely VIP, one has just ordered a $500 bottle of wine that has to be retrieved from the cellar and opened in a timely manner and one is flagging you down because their steak is slightly overcooked. There is a lot that more that goes into it between inputting an order and processing a payment. Those that can't do it fail early, and often spectacularly,
Does the guy at Tim Hortons work just as hard as any waiter? Absolutely. Maybe harder. But in a labour market of supply and demand - and one in which working at a fine dining establishment (where the most money is) requires, generally, a very good grasp of the English language - most people working at the better restaurants out there would not be doing it if they didn't get paid well for it. If you went to say a twenty dollar standard wage, all of the so called "professional" servers would be gone.
Anyway a lot of this can be said about nearly any job. Do many real estate agents really deserve what they make? Hey, they are just running around, meeting people, getting houses ready to show and serving canapes. So they passed a real estate exam. Big whoop.
Overall Toronto's fine dining scene is nothing like a real world class city. There I can assure you that the servers at the top restaurants are easily pulling in between 150-200k a year. There are a few restaurants in Toronto where you could push 100k, but most waiters working in good establishments are probably more in the 50-70k range. Still a reasonably decent living.
Or better yet on a pile driving crew.
we should honestly just emulate the europeans, pay everyone the same fucking wage so servers can no longer make the argument that they're being paid less, and therefore we 'need' to tip them.
i very rarely tip for poor service because i've been there and it sucks, but still, if you're a godawful waiter or waitress, you do not deserve a bonus. and everyone knows that servers make so much more than the people making regular minimum wage, so really, the complaints about not making enough are a bit empty. tipping culture in north america is def bullshit, but employers will milk it all they can, and bleeding hearts who socially ostracize/guilt/shame other people (like on this forum lol) for objecting on principle to tipping will unfortunately keep it around. totally senseless.
In Europe usually 15% is included in the bill and you are expected to leave a little extra. I will let you judge how the service in Europe compares to North America. Also how often do you really get bad service, maybe I am lucky but never has a situation arose were the service was horrible enough not to leave a tip. From your writing style I sense you might have a negative energy that might be picked up on the waitstaff that serves you that is why you get such poor service. Its free to be polite and it goes a long way.
In case you are really this oblivious
I never avoided your question, I answered it WITHOUT your racist generalizations (you know the one about all blacks you observed were cheap and all)
Go back read again
You are this oblivioius, go back and read my response.
is he still not reading correctly? LOLYou are this oblivioius, go back and read my response.
Priceless.
You should try putting him on ignore. It works wonders, except when people quite him...... Ya I am looking right at you for that on bub! :wink:
