Abuse of Hydro/Air Conditioning

[oldjones]

Unless there's a major disaster, you won't be seeing rolling blackouts this summer. Ontario has more electricity generation capacity than it can shake a stick at right now. It's not like a couple years ago where capacity was tapped out and every really hot day was iffy in terms of having enough power on the grid.

There is no perfect solution to AC abusers but the best way is for people to pay the true price of electricity they use. So if you want to pay a premium to run your AC all day, more power to you. But it won't be done on the subsidies of everyone else.

Of course that true price of electricity currently does not include the carbon burden and pollution cost of all those dirty coal or even of those 'clean' new natural gas generating stations. Not yet. Maybe if Dion's Carbon Tax had gone thru. But then he lost the election, didn't he?

In that respect every one of us who isn't demanding rate hikes is no better than BP sinking a well they couldn't be sure was blowout proof.

The grandkids can clean up after we're gone.

 

[Cobster]

People - if you are leaving the house for a few hours turn the air OFF.

..and the lights, TVs, lamps, etc...

 

[bebe]

Why arent you out banging a tight hottie ?

Just waiting for one of the girls on my TDL to visit the Markham/Airport Area.

 

[Asterix]

Most of the time Ontario is importing and exporting power to neighbouring states. See http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/media/md_index.asp and look for 'hourly imports' and 'hourly exports'.

And looking at the chart, Ontario has had a very healthy export/import ratio along the energy grid in the last two years, a grid that includes the three closest US states.

 

[OddSox]

Of course that true price of electricity currently does not include the carbon burden and pollution cost of all those dirty coal or even of those 'clean' new natural gas generating stations. Not yet. Maybe if Dion's Carbon Tax had gone thru. But then he lost the election, didn't he?

In that respect every one of us who isn't demanding rate hikes is no better than BP sinking a well they couldn't be sure was blowout proof.

The grandkids can clean up after we're gone.

I guess you would rather Dalton spent a few more billion on windmills - that produce something like 10% of what they are supposed to. See http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/marketdata/windpower.asp

 

[gww]

If Dalton McAsshole can't import more power to cool our houses he should get the F out of Parliment, or burn in hell.

Do they have AC set @ 21 there.

 

[oldjones]

I guess you would rather Dalton spent a few more billion on windmills - that produce something like 10% of what they are supposed to. See http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/marketdata/windpower.asp

Whatever you may think of windmills, I'll keep on not mentioning them, OK Don QSox?

Spend it now is cheaper than spend it later. BP couldn't afford the additional measures that would have managed its risk down to say 1%, like pre-drilling the relief wells, or having a tested containment cap ready to go. Too expensive; not cost-effective. The cost of cleaning up mine (often copper) waste in Montana far exceeds the entire total of all the profits of all the mining companies who left it behind.

Who's cleaning it up? The taxpayers who believed copper was cheap enough to make pennies out of, if it meant jobs. Heck we coulda used 'em as quarters, but no one asked. The only way not to have clean-up costs is not to make messes in the first place. The only way to keep them cheap is to keep the job clean as you go. Assuming you're not just gonna cut and run like the old-time mining companies. Or Syncrude?

When all the left-behind crap was way out in the boonies, who cared? But there'aint no boonies any more: sushi in Japan is being threatened by the Gulf spill. So's your commuting cost. Point is all those things have historically been priced too low, because once the waste was washed into the sea/downstream/up the stack/into the tailings pond, it was an 'externality'†.

Well, guess what? There ain't no old-fashioned externalities no more. There's always someone living downwind, downstream or down the block who's gonna resent you/me dumping our trash on them and make you clean up. If we aren't smart enough to figure those clean up costs—for intentional and accidental messes—into the bottom line, let's try to have faith the guys at the business schools will, or it will be an awfully ugly cheap, dirty future. A classy, and clean one appeals more, even if pricey. That's what all the enviro stuff's about—shortening the clean-up chain, so people pay for their messes up front. And if prices go up, so be it: if that's the End of Lif As We Know It, no one woulda reproduced after the invention of money.

Anyway, don't let Toronto cops catch you w/ that lance before you find a windmill to run at OK? Oops. I said the woid; where's the duck?

†I realize I'm likely mis-using what is a technical term in Ecomomics and someone is likely to correct me. I hope the meaning I derived from 'externality's origins in English is nonetheless clear. You can trust me to attempt to explain at even greater length if it isn't

 

[emacs]

It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

that is true.

when humidity is high we loose less water through breathing. water, in part, helps regulate our body temperature. our bodies perceive 25C high humidity to be much hotter than 25C low humidity.

 

[fuji]

There's a solution but it requires a network change and would/will take a decade or more to roll out.

All houses should be wired with two separate circuits: Essential, and non-essential power.

Ontario law should then mandate that certain appliances must run on the non-essential power: A/C, hot water, washer/dryer, stove, and possibly heat. All other household appliances would run on the essential circuit.

Hydro would then be able to implement rolling blackouts of just the non-essential services during peak load, maintaining basic electrical power to everyone. The expectation is that non-essential services would only go out for an our or two hence something like "heat" isn't essential--obviously if it were to go out for a day it would become an essential in that case.

Obviously this would take years maybe decades before it reached everyone. Even if just new buildings going up were wired this way it would be an improvement, and maybe there could be a 20 year plan to move everyone over.

 

[Keebler Elf]

Of course that true price of electricity currently does not include the carbon burden and pollution cost ...

Fuck that, the prices we pay now don't even include the true cost of electricity. We're so heavily subsidized that you'd have to almost double the electricity rates for us to be paying the true price. And that doesn't even contemplate extra speculative costs for things like "carbon burden."

As evidenced by the previous' government's attempt to privatize the electricity sector and the resulting surge in electricity prices that forced them to back off. Subsidies don't work in a free market so you better be willing to bear the true burden.

That's why I'm all for metered electricity usage and pricing. Every one of us should be paying for what we use and if we choose to be wasteful, we should pay a premium for that. And gradually the rates should be adjusted to the true price to match the fluctuations of the market (i.e., lower prices at night and higher prices during the daytime peak periods).

 

[SaturnFan]

.... And gradually the rates should be adjusted to the true price to match the fluctuations of the market (i.e., lower prices at night and higher prices during the daytime peak periods).

Isn't that what Smart meters and time-of-use prices are supposed to accomplish ??

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/smart_meters.asp?sid=ic

 

[johnny]

I know today's power outage was due to a fire/explosion at a sub-station, but with the heat this week don't be surprised if we have rolling black-outs. If we normally keep our temp at 22 degrees in the winter with clothing on...why do people keep it colder in the summer. It makes no sense.

I keep my house at 71 mabey 72...its comfortable that way. so why am i going to not sue air conditioning to try and conserve energy, but them people go and have 4 kids and just keep adding to the demand?? its not about conservation, its overpopulation.
Like i have said before, i dont go out of my way to recycle or be green and i will still do less enviromental damage than most people because i have no kids.....no matter how enviromentally friendly someone is in their lives, theya re still going to do a lot of enviromental damage.
so for me to sacrifice my comfort to "conserve" while others have a bunch of kids.... I dont think so.

 

[HOF]

I was home today (not out banging some tight young hottie) and I an the house to 24. At night I run the house to 21/22 C - better for sleeping.

If Dalton McAsshole can't import more power to cool our houses he should get the F out of Parliment, or burn in hell.

Do you think Asshole Hudak or Asshole Horvath would do any better? Really?

In Ontario MPP=Member of the Legislative Assembly
Federally MPs=Members of the House of Commons
http://canadaonline.about.com/od/elections/a/mlalist.htm For future reference.

Ontario spent millions on the hydro infrastructure after the blackout that was that was caused by FirstEnergy of Ohio! After the U.S. placed blame on Canada; it was found the blackout actually occured because of FirstEnergies failure to maintain trees.

BTW, my home is now set at 24 and is very comfortable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_North_America_blackout

 

[HOF]

No. It's the humanity. Congenitally slow to learn. We're quite happy outside at 25º, so it's dead extarvagant to cool the house to less than that, and still wasteful to cool it that much when no one's there.

But we're still expecting our grandkids to pick up the tab for our carbon-production and waste-making. Never mind the oil we're soilling so we can set our AC on HI.

No, it's the humidity and humanity! Drive less, use candles, turn the TV and computer off, set the thermo at 24, mine is now that my home is cool and will remain there. As for grandkids, I don't have kids, so I'm not worrying about grandkids and we're all done in 2012 regardless because the Mayan's say so, and one of these world clowns will probably push the final button. So screw it, live for today.

 

[james t kirk]

maybe they like it cold. the problem isnt the demand its the poor job that our leaders have done in planning for the supply

Exactly.

Building Hydro lines is not sexy. You don't pick up a lot of votes standing there saying that you improved the infrastructure.

 

[james t kirk]

I was home today (not out banging some tight young hottie) and I an the house to 24. At night I run the house to 21/22 C - better for sleeping.

If Dalton McAsshole can't import more power to cool our houses he should get the F out of Parliment, or burn in hell.

The problem is not one of generation, but one of distribution. There is plenty of generating capacity, but the wires, transformers, etc. are all too little and too old.

 

[Robinto]

How much electrical energy does the TTC suck out of the grid? I heard somewhere that it's up to 50% of the power. It's massive, whatever it is. And I bet the city tries their best to fudge the percentage numbers.

Since streetcars are essentially coal and nuke powered, and NOT magical, clean and pure, as their advocates suggest, I'd suggest eliminating them for modern diesel buses, except in one or two tourist areas for tradition's sake. Keep the China town street car, (and I guess were stuck with St Clair as well)

The Spadina line could then be like the popular (and only) slow-moving, lumbering, street car attraction that clatters through the Garden District in New Orleans.

Not only will demands on the electrical grid be stabilized, but cars can start to move a little faster on Toronto roads, moving past stopped buses, instead of being and trapped and idling behind street cars.

Half-hour car tips will now take a half-hour in the city instead of 45 minutes, and the overall carbon footprint of vehicle/TTC traffic will be minimized.

 

[shrek71]

There's a solution but it requires a network change and would/will take a decade or more to roll out.

All houses should be wired with two separate circuits: Essential, and non-essential power.

Ontario law should then mandate that certain appliances must run on the non-essential power: A/C, hot water, washer/dryer, stove, and possibly heat. All other household appliances would run on the essential circuit.

There is a flaw in your logic, Fuji. Who determines what is essential and not essential? If you have Asthma or were elderly, for example, you would determine A/C to be essential. I would also argue heat is also essential in the winter. However the peak power issue is more of a summer time discussion.

A better idea would be what is being rolled out now with the Smart Electric meters and time of use billing, that way those who choose to have their A/C set at a ridiculous low temp will pay more. Same for those that are wasteful with the electricity.

Perhaps a longer term idea would be to have each homeowner install some form or renewable energy and offset what they pull from the grid.

However it is easier to conserve power than it is to create more capacity. Have all the business up their thermostats a couple of degrees to 23C or so from the 20C they are usually set at. Have all of the businesses that light up their parking lots like Christmas trees at night stop doing that.

Cheers

 

[oldjones]

How much electrical energy does the TTC suck out of the grid? I heard somewhere that it's up to 50% of the power. It's massive, whatever it is. And I bet the city tries their best to fudge the percentage numbers.

Since streetcars are essentially coal and nuke powered, and NOT magical, clean and pure, as their advocates suggest, I'd suggest eliminating them for modern diesel buses, except in one or two tourist areas for tradition's sake. Keep the China town street car, (and I guess were stuck with St Clair as well)

The Spadina line could then be like the popular (and only) slow-moving, lumbering, street car attraction that clatters through the Garden District in New Orleans.

Not only will demands on the electrical grid be stabilized, but cars can start to move a little faster on Toronto roads, moving past stopped buses, instead of being and trapped and idling behind street cars.

Half-hour car tips will now take a half-hour in the city instead of 45 minutes, and the overall carbon footprint of vehicle/TTC traffic will be minimized.

If the streetcars are coal and nuke powered, it's because the whole grid is. But unlike your dishwasher, AC, stove or hot water use, the streetcar's load is essentially constant and predictable, and it serves more people per kilowatt hour than our personal fluctuating loads. Because you can't store the excess electricity you make in off-peak times and feed it into the system to meet high demand, it's you and me bro' who should be taken off line, not the street cars.

I'll leave it to experts to determine whether point-of-use power generation like a typical fuel-burning engine is more efficient and carbon-miserly than single point electricity generation, but let's note that some of the oil spilling into the Gulf was gonna be clean diesel. Even if all of it was gonna be clean diesel, the Gulf's just as dirty, and BP wasn't drilling there because it was cheap and easy. Adding hundreds more diesel buses—each one needing tuning and tinkering to stay clean, and none yet capable of meeting ant-idling standards—doesn't get us anywhere good that I can see yet. And nobody but car guys is promoting single use vehicles as the way of any green future.

But in the traffic congestion thing you do make a valid point. It's terrible to a see a half dozen or more single-occupant cars held up by one packed streetcar, just because someone wants to get on or off, when they could be keeping any number of buses from getting back into traffic. What we need to do is extend the 'stop for the streetcar law' to include all transit vehicles. That would ensure the the sixty or more folks on a crowded bus, sharing one big engine would have faster trips than all those single drivers each burning their own fuel to move a mostly empty car.

At least a couple of those drivers might begin to see the light.

BTW: How much energy does it take to extract and refine a tankful of diesel or gasoline, and how much pollution's produced doing it, and burning it? I've heard 50% of all energy use and of all pollution. It's massive whatever it is, and I bet the users and manufacturers do their best to fudge the numbers.

 

[Cobster]

We're gonna get rolling blackouts, just wait and see.
Nobody cares to turn things off when not in use or some keep their windows and patio doors open when they have their A/C on.
Just a matter of time.