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Are you all gonna get mad a Barbara Kay as well?

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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No I'm clarifying what actually happened.

Your analogy of the Trudeau children is incorrect. Trudeau was not only a Prime Minister but a former Cabinet Minister so his being granted a state funeral was automatic. In cases like that the family does not get to chose the can only refuse, but no one ever has, so how does tha compare to the state funeral of a sitting MP. I have no real issue with him being offered a state funeral; its the lying in state in Ottawa and Toronto that starts to set a dangerous precendent. I mean where do we draw the line now when an MP dies? Do we now pay for every MP and Senator to have the same option?

As for still being leader, he stepped down and reliquinshed his role as the head of the NDP party and the role of the Leader of the Official Oppositon. If he had recovered and wanted to resume his position, he would have needed to run again within his party to win the leadership. It is not an automatic appointment.
The Trudeau children also had they wished to would have been able to turn down the state funeral as the family 'always' has the final discision, so the analogy is not wrong.

To also repeat another mistake you made;

Canada is Constitutional monarchy and a democracy.

From; http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/Senate/M...archy_00-e.htm

Canada is a constitutional monarchy. Since 1534, when the King of France claimed possession of what is now Canada, the history of our country has been marked by the reigns of an uninterrupted succession of monarchs, both French and British, who have had a significant influence on our country's development.
Under the Crown, Canada developed first as a colony of two empires, originally the French and subsequently the British, then as an independent dominion, and now as an entirely sovereign nation. The Crown occupies a central place in our Parliament and our democracy, founded on the rule of law and respect for rights and freedoms; the Crown embodies the continuity of the state and is the underlying principle of its institutional unity . The Crown is fused to all three branches of government. The Prime Minister, as head of the Executive, is the Governor General's principal advisor; the Crown is also a constituent element of Parliament, with the Senate and the House of Commons; and finally, all decisions made by the courts are given in the Crown's name.
The most important characteristic of Canada's constitutional monarchy has been its ability to adapt to changing conditions over the course of our evolution from colony to nation. In the Senate Foyer and the Salon de la Francophonie hang the portraits of the kings and queens in whose names our laws have been, and continue to be, enacted.

I can offer you more sources if you'd like.

 

thompo69

Member
Nov 11, 2004
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I brought the BQ opposition leaders name into it because if Jack Layton gets a state Funeral (which again I am fine with) that sets a precedence and potential expectation that other Opposition leaders will get one. And there is no way that anyone from the BQ should be honoured in such a way.

I also didn't bother to list the dates they were opposition leaders as I thought everyone knew the BQ was the official opposition for a time.
Except the offer was made because Jack was a SITTING Leader of the Opposition. None of the BQ names you mention have held the post for at least 15 years. The PM decided to treat the Leader of the Opposition as a Cabinet Minister, who are entitled to a state funeral ONLY if they die while in office.
 

masterchief

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You really don't want to know
Um, state funerals are ALWAYS at the discretion of the family. That's how they work.
I agree, but the previous poster claimed that the Prime Minister decided on a state funeral. He did not, his decision was to offer one to the family as is protocol.
Yes a small detail, but a major one as well.
 

wigglee

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masterchief

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Except the offer was made because Jack was a SITTING Leader of the Opposition. None of the BQ names you mention have held the post for at least 15 years. The PM decided to treat the Leader of the Opposition as a Cabinet Minister, who are entitled to a state funeral ONLY if they die while in office.
Again, Jack Layton was no longer the sitting leader, an interim leader was appointed until the NDP could hold a election for a new leader for the party.
Jack stepped down in July.
 

thompo69

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Nov 11, 2004
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Your analogy of the Trudeau children is incorrect. Trudeau was not only a Prime Minister but a former Cabinet Minister so his being granted a state funeral was automatic. In cases like that the family does not get to chose the can only refuse, but no one ever has, so how does tha compare to the state funeral of a sitting MP. I have no real issue with him being offered a state funeral; its the lying in state in Ottawa and Toronto that starts to set a dangerous precendent. I mean where do we draw the line now when an MP dies? Do we now pay for every MP and Senator to have the same option?
You really are out to lunch here. First of all, as a former Prime minister, the fact that Trudeau was also at one time a cabinet minister is irrelevant. PM outranks minister, and former ministers are not entitled to a state funeral; only former GGs and PMs. Also, a state funeral is NOT automatic. What is automatic is the offer from the PM. It always at the discretion of the family both whether or not have a state funeral, and also the details.

As for still being leader, he stepped down and reliquinshed his role as the head of the NDP party and the role of the Leader of the Official Oppositon. If he had recovered and wanted to resume his position, he would have needed to run again within his party to win the leadership. It is not an automatic appointment.
And your point about the state of his leadership is also completely wrong. He did not step down, he took a leave of absence and remained substantively the leader. Had he returned to health there would have been no need for any election. He would have just walked right back into the office he never vacated.

Please get your facts straight.
 

Jennifer_

New member
I agree, but the previous poster claimed that the Prime Minister decided on a state funeral. He did not, his decision was to offer one to the family as is protocol.
Yes a small detail, but a major one as well.
If your spouse dedicated their career to serving their country till their last days, would you turn down the offer of a state funeral from the PM (when there is no set rule saying they weren't entitled to said honour)?
Come on now.... find another area to find fault (or maybe simmer down till after his funeral out of respect for the man).
(if I'm late for my first appointment it's Terb's fault :p)
 

thompo69

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Nov 11, 2004
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Again, Jack Layton was no longer the sitting leader, an interim leader was appointed until the NDP could hold a election for a new leader for the party.
Jack stepped down in July.
Again, you are full of shit. He took a leave of absence until his health returned. No leadership convention was planned or contemplated as he intended to return in September.
 

masterchief

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The Trudeau children also had they wished to would have been able to turn down the state funeral as the family 'always' has the final discision, so the analogy is not wrong.

To also repeat another mistake you made;

Canada is Constitutional monarchy and a democracy.
My analogy was not about being able to refuse a state funeral, but the fact that the comparison was being made to a former Prime Minister to an MP in regards to being equal in recieving the honors of a state funeral and of laying in state.

We are not a democracy since we do not elect our Head of State. We may have democratic ideals, but as long as that position is appointed (By God for the Monarch and the PM for the GG) we are a constitutional monarchy
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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Again, Jack Layton was no longer the sitting leader, an interim leader was appointed until the NDP could hold a election for a new leader for the party.
Jack stepped down in July.
so what? harper made the offer because he has the authority to do so, and for whatever reasons, decided to...end of story, unless you want to grill harper on it, but perhaps you should have some respect and wait about a week.
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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My analogy was not about being able to refuse a state funeral, but the fact that the comparison was being made to a former Prime Minister to an MP in regards to being equal in recieving the honors of a state funeral and of laying in state.

We are not a democracy since we do not elect our Head of State. We may have democratic ideals, but as long as that position is appointed (By God for the Monarch and the PM for the GG) we are a constitutional monarchy
what a crock o' shit! The fact that the Queen is a figurehead with almost no power allows us to call ourselves a democracy. Who calls the shots, Harper and the elected Parliament or the old bag sipping tea in jolly old London?
 

thompo69

Member
Nov 11, 2004
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My analogy was not about being able to refuse a state funeral, but the fact that the comparison was being made to a former Prime Minister to an MP in regards to being equal in recieving the honors of a state funeral and of laying in state.
I no longer understand your jumbled logic. You used to just be wrong, now you don't make sense.

We are not a democracy since we do not elect our Head of State. We may have democratic ideals, but as long as that position is appointed (By God for the Monarch and the PM for the GG) we are a constitutional monarchy
We are BOTH a constitutional monarchy AND a parliamentary democracy, something that anyone with grade 9 civics should know.
 

Captain Fantastic

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Jun 28, 2008
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As for still being leader, he stepped down and reliquinshed his role as the head of the NDP party and the role of the Leader of the Official Oppositon. If he had recovered and wanted to resume his position, he would have needed to run again within his party to win the leadership. It is not an automatic appointment.
masterchief said:
Your facts are off because you claim the Prime Minister decided... he did not. Olivia Chow did.
Actually, the only person who has their facts wrong is you. Olivia Chow cannot - I repeat CAN NOT - decide who has a state funeral. That is solely the realm of Governor General in Council and the Office of the Prime Minister, who offers it to the family of the deceased. (Outside of the most private of families, I doubt many would turn down that honour.) Heritage Canada is involved after that to work with the family along with the GG.

Secondly, Jack Layton took a temporary leave of absence and asked that Nycole Turmel be the acting leader of the Opposition in his absence. That does NOT mean he relinquished his position permanently - death did that - nor does it mean there was going to be/plans underway for a leadership vote in the NDP.

Unfortunate that you let your blind partisanship get in the way of actual facts.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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My analogy was not about being able to refuse a state funeral, but the fact that the comparison was being made to a former Prime Minister to an MP in regards to being equal in recieving the honors of a state funeral and of laying in state.

We are not a democracy since we do not elect our Head of State. We may have democratic ideals, but as long as that position is appointed (By God for the Monarch and the PM for the GG) we are a constitutional monarchy
Apparently you know better than the Government of Canada itself, which published the document I offered for clarification in another post, #43. Did you actually look at it?

Remember this, http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/Senate/M...archy_00-e.htm
 

Aardvark154

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what a crock o' shit! The fact that the Queen is a figurehead . . .the old bag sipping tea in jolly old London?
Actually she's at Balmoral at present.

So we should all be quiet for a week in deference to Jack Layton. But you can call the Sovereign an "old bag," talk about a double standard.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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Actually she's at Balmoral at present.

So we should all be quiet for a week in deference to Jack Layton. But you can call the Sovereign an "old bag," talk about a double standard.
Kind of shows how in touch Wigglee is.
 
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anon1

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Aug 19, 2001
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Tranquility Base, La Luna
Ms. Kay only briefly touches on the fact that the whole state funeral business/idea came from Harper and Harper alone. He calculated that it would be the politically beneficial thing for him to do, so he did it. And in the end, she refers to the whole affair as a "goof."

quoted from link commentaries
 

wigglee

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2010
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Actually she's at Balmoral at present.

So we should all be quiet for a week in deference to Jack Layton. But you can call the Sovereign an "old bag," talk about a double standard.
when she dies, I shall refrain from calling her an old bag for one week.......isn't that fair?
 

Aardvark154

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Jan 19, 2006
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Ms. Kay only briefly touches on the fact that the whole state funeral business/idea came from Harper and Harper alone. He calculated that it would be the politically beneficial thing for him to do, so he did it. And in the end, she refers to the whole affair as a "goof."

quoted from link commentaries
There was a link to the article right in the first post. But here you are http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/08/24/barbara-kay-jack-layton-shouldnt-get-a-state-funeral/
 
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