Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[fuji]

Nonsense, right wing ideology mascarading as the facts, tell uncle Rush Limbaugh, he believes the same stuff, the numbers are in rapid decline however. You simply cannot escape the FACT that people who think llike you caused THE RECESSION .

Looks like you ran out of arguments and switched to insults. That's what small minded people do when they lose debates: they quit talking about facts, quit making arguments, and switch to insults. It makes them feel better about losing.

Thanks for conceding the debate.

(I mean seriously, dude, you just called it "right wing propaganda" that when you overpay for something you can afford less of it.)

 

[Mrbig1949]

You just keep repeating the same shit

Looks like you ran out of arguments and switched to insults. That's what small minded people do when they lose debates: they quit talking about facts, quit making arguments, and switch to insults. It makes them feel better about losing.

Thanks for conceding the debate.

(I mean seriously, dude, you just called it "right wing propaganda" that when you overpay for something you can afford less of it.)

I say the public wages are alredy underpayed the private wages in most cases are way underpaid. You just assume the private rates are correct because they are set by this invisible hand of the market bull shit that nobody believes any more. Is Big Pharma the market or a cartel? What about agribusiness, supported by government, Silicon valley? state supported, Boeing, Locheed martin Westinghouse? defence contractors, Microsoft, Apple sucking the gov't tit big time in education and health, the so called market is a rigged wheel in a cheap casino witness Wall Street, you argue like a sophmore, you don't know what you are talking about, sounds like Samualson Scott Economics 101 with no experience of the real market, the one that is as crooked as a dogs hind leg.

The economy has proven that Hayak, Freidman, Rand, and all the rest were complete fools for believing in a self regulating market.

The whole point of public sector wages is to LEAD private wages on purpose to force private employers to increase wages and as a result increase happiness in the commonwealth community.

If you believe in the MARKET you are a complete fool who ought to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

Those who espouse the market ubre alles philosophy are either stupid or simply hiding behind a convenient argument to line their pockets at the expense of the bottom 90% of society. The bottom 95% of our society is being screwed blue by the top 5% of Plutocrats who we could EASILY do without. They are the real winners of Bush's tax cuts nobody else. Harper? Just a poodle for Bush, luckily he is gone. Harper next.

 

[fuji]

I can't really believe how unenlightened, how benighted, how uneducated, how patently ridiculous your claims are:

I say the public wages are alredy underpayed the private wages in most cases are way underpaid.

What do you think would happen if you just doubled everyone's wage?

Do you think that would raise the standard of living?

Or do you think that would simply result in everything costing twice as much?

You just assume the private rates are correct because they are set by this invisible hand of the market bull shit that nobody believes any more.

Everybody but you believes that. Seriously. You hate that you've been proved wrong, so now you are lashing out at science.

Are you also a creationist? Do you refuse to believe in evolution?

Are you one of those people who insists the world if flat, too?

Is Big Pharma the market or a cartel? What about agribusiness, supported by government

Sure when you have one or two companies in a market you get what's called a monopoly or an oligopoly and everybody knows that leads to unfair prices. It's the same problem as CUPE having a monopoly on garbage collection in Toronto--the monopolist always tries to extort everybody else and take an unfair share.

For most people and most businesses the labour market is extremely competitive. My employer had a choice of probably 5-10 other people that they could have hired, and I had 3-4 other job opportunities available. That is a competitive labour market.

The city has no shortage of people they could hire to pick up the trash, and those labourers have lots of companies they could apply to other than the city. Again, a highly competitive market.

The whole point of public sector wages is to LEAD private wages on purpose to force private employers to increase wages and as a result increase happiness in the commonwealth community.

That is moronic. The point of public sector wages is to provide services to the taxpayers who pay for those wages, and who vote for the politicians. It is not a charity.

If you believe in the MARKET you are a complete fool who ought to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

So are you also a communist then? Seriously. Even hard-core socialists believe in free markets. If you don't, then what are you actually?

Those who espouse the market ubre alles philosophy are either stupid or simply hiding behind a convenient argument to line their pockets at the expense of the bottom 90% of society. The bottom 95% of our society is being screwed blue by the top 5% of Plutocrats who we could EASILY do without.

Yup, you sound like a communist. Workers of the world unite?

You are a complete fucking moron.

Sorry. I think that is in evidence as a fact at this point.

You've accused me of being right wing which is just fucking hilarious too. You assume that anybody who points out that you are an idiot must be at the opposite end of the political system. How pathetic.

 

[blackrock13]

Your bumper sticker comments have been shown to be full of holes'

Taxes = civilization

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized community-Oliver Wendall Holmes Supreme Court, same as #1. but this time you drop another name.

Higher public sector wages equals a higher standard of living for the community and if you don't get this there is little hope for you. (big bumper sticker)

The whole point of public sector wages is to LEAD private wages on purpose to force private employers to increase wages and as a result increase happiness in the commonwealth community.
-------------------------------------

No one here has argued against taxes, just against spending taxes badly and over paying some public sector workers is bad spending.
When the wages of public sector workers go up, taxes go up to pay for them. For that increase in taxes what is produced, nothing except for fatter bank accounts.

'USA hyperexploits an underclass to the advantage of those above. Most European countries and Canada, Australia etc would not tolerate the extremes of wealth and poverty allowed in the USA.'

I'm still trying to understand 'hyperexploits'

Again where else have you worked, or I'll even settle for spent some time in, that you can make this statement. remember that our garbage collector wages place them in the top 20% of wage earners in this marketplace. That puts them realy close to that top echelon that you mouth off about.

You're still trying to equate higher wages with happiness. There are so so many examples out there that make this such BS that it's embarrassing. Remember 'money can't buy happiness'? You seem to think it can.

The best countries seem to be the ones that have figured out that a combination of free market and socialist economies works really well. Bigger isn't always better either. One of the largest public services in the world is Iceland and we know what that lead to, don't we.

You were given the opportunity to back you comments about 'higher PS wages equating to a higher standard of living' with some figures but haven't done so to this point. Take your time.

 

[JohnLarue]

Nonsense, right wing ideology mascarading as the facts, tell uncle Rush Limbaugh, he believes the same stuff, the numbers are in rapid decline however. You simply cannot escape the FACT that people who think llike you caused THE RECESSION .

You do not have the first loose clue.
And once again you do not understand economics.

The recession was caused by millions of Americans who also did not understand economics. They spent and borrowed more than they could afford.
Eventually the bill comes in & they could not pay it

You would have our governments do the same so that a trash collector can afford a two garage house, an SUV, vacations in Europe, university education for his kids and an early retirement with a large nest egg of cash.

Sorry, we all need to live within our means. Your special interest groups can not exceed their means at the expense of the tax-payer.
They need to pick and choose based upon the compensation determined by the market value of their services.
If they want and need all of the above, find another profession that pays better. But do not ask me to pay for their excess entitlements through higher taxes.

I work hard enough to meet my goals in life, I certainly do not need to carry your lot along the way

You say people who think like me cause this recession. (I adamantly disagree)

I say if we do not rein in people who think like you we will have a DEPRESSION & your kids will have you to thank for it

 

[blackrock13]

Hey BW;

Remember, I'm self-employed as are a few others on this BB.

I sit down at a bargaining table every time I go to a job interview or make a business presentation. My reputation and business is on the block when I attend a breakfast meeting where I might know one person and the others are at worst network contacts or at best possible employers. Even on the golf course, when my foursome is made up of people other than my best buds, my reputation and business prospects can be on the line.

 

[Mrbig1949]

You arrogant little prick

I can't really believe how unenlightened, how benighted, how uneducated, how patently ridiculous your claims are:



What do you think would happen if you just doubled everyone's wage?

Do you think that would raise the standard of living?

Or do you think that would simply result in everything costing twice as much?



Everybody but you believes that. Seriously. You hate that you've been proved wrong, so now you are lashing out at science.

Are you also a creationist? Do you refuse to believe in evolution?

Are you one of those people who insists the world if flat, too?



Sure when you have one or two companies in a market you get what's called a monopoly or an oligopoly and everybody knows that leads to unfair prices. It's the same problem as CUPE having a monopoly on garbage collection in Toronto--the monopolist always tries to extort everybody else and take an unfair share.

For most people and most businesses the labour market is extremely competitive. My employer had a choice of probably 5-10 other people that they could have hired, and I had 3-4 other job opportunities available. That is a competitive labour market.

The city has no shortage of people they could hire to pick up the trash, and those labourers have lots of companies they could apply to other than the city. Again, a highly competitive market.



That is moronic. The point of public sector wages is to provide services to the taxpayers who pay for those wages, and who vote for the politicians. It is not a charity.



So are you also a communist then? Seriously. Even hard-core socialists believe in free markets. If you don't, then what are you actually?



Yup, you sound like a communist. Workers of the world unite?

You are a complete fucking moron.

Sorry. I think that is in evidence as a fact at this point.

You've accused me of being right wing which is just fucking hilarious too. You assume that anybody who points out that you are an idiot must be at the opposite end of the political system. How pathetic.

You don't know shit from shinola, you haven't proven a thing since the start of the debate. Your biggest problem is that you take you assertions and beliefs for facts, they are not FACTS asshole. You think economics is a science? The economists don't even believe that. You must be young, come back when you have experienced some real life.

 

[fuji]

You don't know shit from shinola, you haven't proven a thing since the start of the debate. Your biggest problem is that you take you assertions and beliefs for facts, they are not FACTS asshole. You think economics is a science? The economists don't even believe that. You must be young, come back when you have experienced some real life.

Again, thanks for conceding the debate. By now it is pretty clear to everyone reading that you've lost this one, and that you've switched from pounding on the facts to pounding on the table.

Please, though, if you wish to continue, try and defend either of these ridiculous claims that you have made:

1. That we can create a middle class by paying fake high wages, even though the underlying productivity isn't there

2. That a community is somehow made better off if taxpayers overpay for services, and as a result enjoy fewer benefits

Good luck to you, Mr. Moron!

 

[blackrock13]

Again, thanks for conceding the debate. By now it is pretty clear to everyone reading that you've lost this one, and that you've switched from pounding on the facts to pounding on the table.

Please, though, if you wish to continue, try and defend either of these ridiculous claims that you have made:

1. That we can create a middle class by paying fake high wages, even though the underlying productivity isn't there

2. That a community is somehow made better off if taxpayers overpay for services, and as a result enjoy fewer benefits

Good luck to you, Mr. Moron!

Sorry Fuji. Don't hold your breath. MB's proved over and over again, in past posts when he says things that get blasted out the water with facts or gets challenge on his 'bumper sticker' comments, he just goes into silent mode and hopes we'll forget the comments in time.

The list of his bloopers is becoming really long and verging on legendary that to list them here would take up too much bandwidth.

Anybody have favorites?

 

[Mrbig1949]

Nobodt is conceding any debate to you my friend

Again, thanks for conceding the debate. By now it is pretty clear to everyone reading that you've lost this one, and that you've switched from pounding on the facts to pounding on the table.

Please, though, if you wish to continue, try and defend either of these ridiculous claims that you have made:

1. That we can create a middle class by paying fake high wages, even though the underlying productivity isn't there

2. That a community is somehow made better off if taxpayers overpay for services, and as a result enjoy fewer benefits

Good luck to you, Mr. Moron!

Hi Mr Asshole,

You are not the referee or the score keeper of the debate pal, just a participant. The wages are not fake, they are very real. You try to survive in Toronto on less than $50 000 good luck to you. The productivity is there.

I am a moderate Social Democrat. I say if we did everything exactly like Scandenavia we would be in excellent shape. This is the nation closest to the optomizing curve of social justice and initiative. MUCH higher taxes, better education, health, social services, etc.

The USA is the world`s worst model to follow. No real public health care, ghettos everywhere, rural poverty, bloated militry budget. Slowly going down the drain yet you guys ape American policies when they are clearly failing. Why would that be, NOT GETTING AHEAD yourself so you want to blame others perhaps.

I just retired from a $180 000 job. Sitting on a great public pension. I don`t mind paying my taxes because I get my head out of my ass every once in a while and look around at what a great country this is due to the public benefits. It could be better but that would require universal child care from toilet training. You think it cost money but it saves more than it costs.

 

[blackrock13]

Hmmm!

Help me here people. At $180,000 it would appears that MB is part of the that top group of people who are in that bracket that he rails against. I have a pretty good idea what he union pension plan has invested in, but I'd love to know what's in HIS portfolio. Only so I know how large to print HYPOCRITE. He screams about others feeding at the greedy trough of corporate capitalism, but I'll bet it trickles some down his way.

 

[JohnLarue]

You don't know shit from shinola, you haven't proven a thing since the start of the debate. Your biggest problem is that you take you assertions and beliefs for facts, they are not FACTS asshole. You think economics is a science? The economists don't even believe that. You must be young, come back when you have experienced some real life.

Your biggest problem is you start with an idealogical position and then (unsuccessfully I might add) try and twist facts to fit that ideal.

It works the other way around
Examine the facts & determine what is feasible given those facts

Yes it would be utopia if all could get paid well enough to afford all that we desire.
But that is impractical

You are ignoring the very basic problem that someone has to pay
As long as it is not your special interest group that must pay you are more than happy to ignore that fact

You dismiss Fuji's economic theories and attack him as being young and naive in the ways of the world

I am neither of those & it is clear that your understanding of macro economic is non-existent.
Its clear you do not understand them or you chose to ignore them, as they do not fit into your self centered ideological image of what the world should be

You have said on many occasions "Why should an employee not have a say in compensation matters"
They do have a say as they can always look elsewhere
What you really mean is "Why should an employee not determine their own compensation"

Many just like you do not understand or just ignore basic economics & if that decision was left up to them or you, we would be awash in corporate bankruptcies,hyperinflation, unmanageable government deficits and unemployment levels so high it would make your head spin.

I also noticed you get insulting and abusive when confronted with logic that you cant spin or counter with a slogan
I suggest you refrain from doing this as it really makes you look bad.

 

[fuji]

You are not the referee or the score keeper of the debate pal, just a participant.

Don't worry, people have eyes to see. I was, as usual, just stating the obvious.

The wages are not fake, they are very real. You try to survive in Toronto on less than $50 000 good luck to you. The productivity is there.

Sorry but if I could go to the private market and find someone who is happy, willing, and able to do the work for less, then the wage is fake. If it wasn't possible to do it for less in Toronto then no-one would.

At least you finally MENTIONED productivity--just to blindly assert that it is there. We both know it isn't, we both know that your view is that so long as you pay workers a high wage it doesn't matter that what they produce is worth less than their wage.

 

[JohnLarue]

I just retired from a $180 000 job. Sitting on a great public pension. I don`t mind paying my taxes because I get my head out of my ass every once in a while and look around at what a great country this is due to the public benefits. It could be better but that would require universal child care from toilet training. You think it cost money but it saves more than it costs.

So lets get this straight, if you do not mind?
You were making $180 K a year, your getting a huge public pension and you soaked your employer for $50K in banked sick days.
Since your getting a huge public pension and you were working as union organizer, Can we assume that these were public unions such as CUPE?

 

[Mrbig1949]

Not saying what union and not organizer

So lets get this straight, if you do not mind?
You were making $180 K a year, your getting a huge public pension and you soaked your employer for $50K in banked sick days.
Since your getting a huge public pension and you were working as union organizer, Can we assume that these were public unions such as CUPE?

All I'm saying is never mind your worn out theories that got us in this shit. northern Europe with its so called high taxes that only very rich people pay is as close to utopia as there is on Earth. You policy prescriptions ape the USA an economic and social disaster.

 

[blackrock13]

All I'm saying is never mind your worn out theories that got us in this shit. northern Europe with its so called high taxes that only very rich people pay is as close to utopia as there is on Earth. You policy prescriptions ape the USA an economic and social disaster.

Nah! I'm not going to say much for now.

I'm just going to sit for a bit and let you dig for a while.

 

[JohnLarue]

All I'm saying is never mind your worn out theories that got us in this shit. northern Europe with its so called high taxes that only very rich people pay is as close to utopia as there is on Earth. You policy prescriptions ape the USA an economic and social disaster.

I knew you would not answer that straightforward question.

There are hypocrites & then there are out-spoken loudmouth hypocrites
You take the cake.
Coming across like your fighting for the downtrodden, little guy, meanwhile your sucking three, four maybe even five times the national average out of your organization.

Since you do not have the balls to answer lets assume this extraction has been at the publics expense.

I have to admit you have done well for yourself and that is normally a quality I admire. Perhaps you have very unique skills that warranted that compensation.
If that is the case I would love to know what they are, thus far compromise, negotiation, responsibility and the application of economic and common sense have obviously been ruled out
My guess is you do not take no for an answer and you wear your opponent down.
I guess a good extortionist makes good money

However the notion that my taxes have been providing you with this level of compensation is disappointing to say the least & just reinforces the fact that major change are required as this type of excess is just inexcusable.

But don't give us the "working man" vs. the "Man" crap anymore.

You had next to zero credibility before, now your the poster boy of union excess and how out of touch they are.

You can reply if you want, but really, will anyone take you seriously now?

 

[Toke]

This I like:

I am a moderate Social Democrat. I say if we did everything exactly like Scandenavia we would be in excellent shape. This is the nation closest to the optomizing curve of social justice and initiative. MUCH higher taxes, better education, health, social services, etc.

The USA is the world`s worst model to follow. No real public health care, ghettos everywhere, rural poverty, bloated militry budget. Slowly going down the drain yet you guys ape American policies when they are clearly failing. Why would that be, NOT GETTING AHEAD yourself so you want to blame others perhaps.

I agree that we don't optimize our tax dollars. Too few taking too much. Not to mention they make required services 'life and death'. Scandenavia has done a better job at being socially conscious, and only if tax dollars were explicitly uniform across the board (i.e. no 'discounts for the rich') then would I agree to high taxes. As is, we pay on our pay-checks and anything we by with the remainder; and this to me is way too high. Especially at the lower end, where a $20/week difference means much more.

You lost me here:

I just retired from a $180 000 job. Sitting on a great public pension. I don`t mind paying my taxes because I get my head out of my ass every once in a while and look around at what a great country this is due to the public benefits. It could be better but that would require universal child care from toilet training. You think it cost money but it saves more than it costs.

As much as I disagree, I wouldn't heap the blame on MB. The system allowed for this one person to take a relatively large share, and this is why I'm for less privatizing, and no public service strikes. City signs your check, you don't strike.

 

[james t kirk]

Hi Mr Asshole,

You are not the referee or the score keeper of the debate pal, just a participant. The wages are not fake, they are very real. You try to survive in Toronto on less than $50 000 good luck to you. The productivity is there.

I am a moderate Social Democrat. I say if we did everything exactly like Scandenavia we would be in excellent shape. This is the nation closest to the optomizing curve of social justice and initiative. MUCH higher taxes, better education, health, social services, etc.

The USA is the world`s worst model to follow. No real public health care, ghettos everywhere, rural poverty, bloated militry budget. Slowly going down the drain yet you guys ape American policies when they are clearly failing. Why would that be, NOT GETTING AHEAD yourself so you want to blame others perhaps.

I just retired from a $180 000 job. Sitting on a great public pension. I don`t mind paying my taxes because I get my head out of my ass every once in a while and look around at what a great country this is due to the public benefits. It could be better but that would require universal child care from toilet training. You think it cost money but it saves more than it costs.

Another champaign socialist.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Actually I prefer a good Wolf Blass Yellow Label Cab-Sauv

Another champaign socialist.

But you dorks just don't seem to know how tired and old your market uber alles rhetoric is. Fiji seems to think it is some kind of science, well it is, it is a social science and the left has as many economists as the right who can clearly demonstrate the cost-Benefit analysis of taxation, take Mike McCraken fro INFORMETRICA or many others. Listen carefully Fuji, it is not science it is opinion. Once again the model is Sweden. Beat that in any statistic you can imagine, the Social Democrats and the unions have created as close on Earth to perfection in government and economics as anyone.

Sad to watch your American model go down the drain.