Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[Brookstone]

They also said that they've already ticketed people for littering or whatever correct term they use.
No garbage pickup, and locations being blocked off completely with lazyass people who wants more $ for such simple jobs. WTF do you expect the public to do! Its the first week of summer and very hot! How long can you stand the smell,especially downtown where its not the cleanest area to begin with ?
Since the strikers are blocking the locations and getting hostile, i say the public should just bring the garbage to they strikers homes and dump it there.

IMO: strike is 1 thing, but completely NOT letting people in to public locations to dump their garbage is going too far. If they are looking for publics sympathy this certainly isnt the way to get it. Just like TTC stoping service on a Friday night without any notice. These people dont really think ahead do they.
Banking that many sick days is ridiculous! I have not even used 10 sick days in all my years of working

 

[JohnLarue]

Sure just fire them all and bring the scabs in, a great way to ruin Canada higher paying jobs. That will drive your housing prices down (like what happen in the USA)

They pick up garbage.
This is not a high skill level position, yet as you point out it is a high paying job, here in Canada
Therefore there is a disconnect between the value they deliver & the total compensation they are demanding,

They are very easily replaced. There is a lot of people looking for work.
This city is broke

Fine, let the union protect them from real world market forces & maintain their privileged positions, but this banking of the sick days is an outrageous rip off of the taxpayers & certainly does not warrant a strike action.

I guess the unions did not learn a single thing from the auto industry mess.
Squeezing too hard & too long will eventually kill the golden goose.

A city can also declare bankruptcy

 

[someone]

Hmm. Union or not the notion the middle class wages and below are prone to getting spent 'locally' more so than with people / entities with vast pools of money is easy enough to prove. All you need to do is check average household spending breakdowns in Canada. What % of that is savings, investments, and travel abroad? Compare that to securing the basic necessities of life, and money spent on local goods (often produced elsewhere but sold here) and services. IF YOU HAVE NO / LITTLE DISCRETIONARY INCOME, BY DEFAULT YOUR SPENDING IS LOCAL. You can't buy municipal bonds for the city of Berlin. Period. Cause you got no money and no place to go.

That money percolates back into the local small business sector to a far greater degree than anything else, and it tends to only percolate into national and multi-national firms that have a local presence. It has a 'good multiplier' pretty much by definition because it has no other place it can actually go. For that matter heavily used infrastructure also has a good economic multiplier in the way, oh say, military spending doesn't. (Mind you that's no reason to pay the grossly unproductive or incompetent. Management has a right to expect productive labour.)

When it comes to the profits of a large firm some is spent locally, some is spent nationally, and some is spent internationally, but not nearly in the same ratio that labour (Union or non) spends its wages.

First, I think you know full well that by evidence I was referring to you claim that private contracting of garbage collection was not cheaper (otherwise, everything else you say would be irrelevent anyway). I take your misdirect as proof that you have no evidence to back up your claim. Thus, I will accept your misdirect and give you a free lesson in economics in response to your misdirect. When money is invested by Canadians in municipal bonds for the city of Berlin, it creates a capital outflow. This increases the supply of Canadian dollars on international markets. In equilibrium, the supply of Canadian dollars has to equal the demand of Canadian dollars on foreign exchange markets. Thus, the exchange rates will adjust until foreigners either buy more of our goods and services or our capital assets (bonds and equity). Whether that extra spending by foreigners is spent in Toronto or Vancouver is of no real concern to me. To the extent foreigners respond by buying our goods and services instead of our capital assets, our net indebtedness to the rest of the world is reduced. Thus, you picked a very bad example when it comes to municipal bonds for the city of Berlin. In addition, you ignore the fact that contracting out would leave more money in the hands of taxpayer (some of which would be saved in the from of bonds and some would be spent on consumption) Second, your whole argument really makes no sense. Whether the money is directly spent locally is not relevant. Even if the domestic spending is on domestically produced goods (and only a small fraction of any spending in a city like Toronto would be on goods produced within the city but the proportion of Canadian goods would be higher) is not relevant, but that would be a second free lesson and the whole point in my coming to terb is to get my mind off work!

BTW, given that garbage collection would likely be contracted out to dozens of private firms (if the intention is to get around unions, there is no reason for the city to simply make one large firm with a lot of government business a target to a union, when there are no real economies of scale in garbage collection anyway) the money would very likely be spent on local firms anyway. Not to mention the extra money taxpayers would have to spend money locally (or save it in foreign bonds, if they so wish). However, it is not really relevant anyway.

 

[Rockslinger]

Watching CP24 interviewing Catherine Swift. She said that her org has examined the union contracts and compared them to the private sector. Fully loaded salaries and benefits of City workers is at least 12% higher than their private sector comparables. She said one can freeze the union contracts and it will take years or maybe never before the private sector ever catches up.

Famous union chorus: This recession is not our fault so why should we sacrifice. Let them eat cake.

 

[spankingman]

Its ironic that the Mayor who is a leftist is playing hard ball with the leftist Unions. Sick days where I work and we get 9 if you dont use them you can bank them in case of illness or injury etc but there is no monetary payout.

Although GARBAGE is the main concern there are others such as daycare,Inspectors Ferrys etc. Great for tourism with summer here eh!!!!!!!

The only reason they settled early last time was that the Pope was coming and they didnt want TO to look bad on world wide TV when he did come.

This might be a LONG summer loads of garbage and NO BOOZE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[someone]

Its ironic that the Mayor who is a leftist is playing hard ball with the leftist Unions.

Marcus Gee of the Globe had an interesting take on that. He thinks it might be good for Miller. I guess time will tell


“Marcus Gee
The odds are in his favour – now Miller needs to stick to his guns
Mayor's dreams for Toronto hang in the balance

The gods are seldom so kind. This week's strike by city workers is a heaven-sent opportunity for Mayor David Miller.
With an election coming next year, his rivals are preparing to paint him as a union-loving, bike-peddling, tax-and-spend downtown lefty out of touch with average Tim Hortons Torontonians.
Here is his chance to prove them wrong. If Mr. Miller can stand up to the unions and win concessions that save the city money in the teeth of a recession, no one will ever be able to say he is a union lapdog or spineless slave of political correctness.
Winning this strike would devastate the right wing, all but assuring Mr. Miller a third term when he faces voters in November, 2010. All he needs to do is stick to his guns.
The odds in this showdown are strongly in his favour. The city, indeed the world, has entered an era of austerity. Everyone is cutting back, hunkering down, making do with less.
Thousands of people in the city have lost their jobs and countless more are hanging on by their fingernails.
Now along comes a strike dedicated to preserving disco-era benefits like 18 days of annual, bankable sick leave. E-mail baskets, call-in shows and letters to the editor are bubbling with outrage at the gall of the city unions.
In baseball, they would call this a big fat pitch. For Mr. Miller, it hangs over home plate like a harvest moon, just begging to be smacked out of the park. Will he swing?
The very idea probably turns the mayor's stomach. He is the furthest thing from a union basher. A long-time NDPer who gave up his party card only in 2007, he has made a point of cultivating good relations with city employees. On top of that, he is a decent guy who doesn't like to bash anyone if he can help it.
But this is not bashing. It's simple realism. As Mr. Miller put it yesterday: “Unfortunately, the world has changed. There is a worldwide recession.” At a time when the city's tax take is down and its welfare rolls are growing, it can't afford to have liabilities like the sick-leave bank hanging over city hall. It's an irrefutable argument.
If he makes it with force and eloquence – and he will have to dial it up several notches to make it stick – there is every chance that he will emerge from this confrontation as a big winner. Other NDPers have managed it. Saskatchewan premier Roy Romanow closed rural hospitals to get the province's books in order. Tommy Douglas ran back-to-back balanced budgets in Saskatchewan (and Mr. Miller hung the sainted Tommy's picture on his office wall). Both were political champions.
It's good politics for leftish leaders to show they can be left in charge of the till. Imagine the headlines for Mr. Miller: the lefty mayor who faced down big labour.
It is not just Mr. Miller's political fate that is at stake. His dreams for the city hang in the balance. He is an ambitious mayor with grand plans for waterfront renewal, transit expansion, better housing and a cleaner environment. All this costs money, and the money is drying up.
After two recent taxes increases (on land transfers and vehicle registration), he has run out of room for more. The right would tar and feather him if he tried another and voters would run him out of town on a rail. Provincial and federal money has run out, too. The feds have given cities a share of the gasoline tax and dedicated hundreds of millions to Toronto transit. The province is uploading social services and saving the city a fortune. Now, suddenly, both levels of government are running staggering deficits. Toronto is on its own.
If Mr. Miller wants to fulfill his costly dreams, he has to save money on other things, like labour costs. And if he wants to do that, he needs to win this strike.
It may sound twisted to say it, but a global recession and tone-deaf unions have furnished him with the ideal ammunition. If he can find the nerve to use it, both he and the city can come out ahead.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...er-needs-to-stick-to-his-guns/article1192906/

 

[james t kirk]

Miller will cave.

At the end of the day, he will figure that the City of Toronto is a socialist town anyway and those are people he panders to. He can't afford to alienate his base (the NDP and the champagne socialists).

He'll cut budgets to roads, bridges, sewers, water mains and transit before he'll stand tough against the unions at City Hall.

 

[chiller_boy]

Miller will cave.

At the end of the day, he will figure that the City of Toronto is a socialist town anyway and those are people he panders to. He can't afford to alienate his base (the NDP and the champagne socialists).

He'll cut budgets to roads, bridges, sewers, water mains and transit before he'll stand tough against the unions at City Hall.

Some union negotiator expert was on CTV this morning with an interesting view. He more or less said that this is all a game. Both the Union and the city know that the strike will not be settled and that binding arbitration will be used. The city will agree and the settlement will be in the Unions interest because ALL binding arbitrations in similar situations favor the unions. Thus, this will suply Miller with his tough negotiator bona fides, but nothing really changes. The guy on CTV said that the ONLY solution is to hire outside workers when this problem occurs and begin negotiating with the outside workers a few months before the contract is up. He said thats what they should have done in London and still might. The taxpayers simply cannot afford the rich contracts of these Unions any more than GM could.

He concluded by saying that the dismantling of the overly rich union contracts is a matter of time. If not this time then next. I wouldnt be surprised to see a mayoral candidate pop up with this as his main platform issue.

 

[buckwheat1]

The city (Mangements) should lead by example!!! Maybe the councilors should gave back their raise after all they make $99000.00 a year I'm sure a garbage make works much harder then any of them. What's the garbage workers hourly rate of pay?.

 

[james t kirk]

The city (Mangements) should lead by example!!! Maybe the councilors should gave back their raise after all they make $99000.00 a year I'm sure a garbage make works much harder then any of them. What's the garbage workers hourly rate of pay?.

I can assure you that most Councillors put in way more hours in a far more responsible job than any fool garbage collector.

100k a year for a Concillor is very low in my opinion.

80 k a year to hoist garbage on the back of a truck is very high in my opinion.

 

[sibannac]

I can assure you that most Councillors put in way more hours in a far more responsible job that any fool garbage collector.

100k a year for a Concillor is very low in my opinion.

80 k a year to hoist garbage on the back of a truck is very high in my opinion.

I would agree with this, 80K is way to much for this kind of work. The sick day issue is more about greed than anything else. But what do expect from union like CUPE, they are run by uncompromising fools who very willing to make Torontoians lives uncomfortable. On top of everything else these asshole picketers are blocking dump sites forcing people to walk a fair distance to get to the site. It's disgusting that these idiots while disrupting the City needlessly would go further and pull a stunt like this.

I say fire the lot of them and go out and hire people who actually want to work.

 

[james t kirk]

Some union negotiator expert was on CTV this morning with an interesting view. He more or less said that this is all a game. Both the Union and the city know that the strike will not be settled and that binding arbitration will be used. The city will agree and the settlement will be in the Unions interest because ALL binding arbitrations in similar situations favor the unions. Thus, this will suply Miller with his tough negotiator bona fides, but nothing really changes. The guy on CTV said that the ONLY solution is to hire outside workers when this problem occurs and begin negotiating with the outside workers a few months before the contract is up. He said thats what they should have done in London and still might. The taxpayers simply cannot afford the rich contracts of these Unions any more than GM could.

.

I agree.

Miller won't stick his neck out.

The question is whether or not they can refuse to go to arbitration. That I don't know. I would think so.

A tough ass city would refuse to go to arbitration and either wait them out, or fire them all and hire replacements. As previously stated there is a surplus of unskilled labour on the market right now and you could easily replace 80 percent of the City staff and no-one would ever notice any difference.

Since the City workers are largely unskilled, and well paid, I do not see the need for this strike at this time. If they were making shit money, I might sympathize with them, however, this is not the case.

 

[buckwheat1]

There are laws against just firing them if there in a legal strike position, see if they weren't unmionized you get rid of them and that's why we have unions.
garbage men don't make 80 -85K a year, I'd like it to go to arbitration because an arbitrator wouldn't take those sick days away, he'd also look at city settlements in the last 12-24 months and the city would lose then.

 

[jgd]

Miller Time: Over

At least part of Miller's appeal was that he was supposed to be able to get along with the Unions. If he can't deliver the voters may decide to bring in someone else.

 

[james t kirk]

At least part of Miller's appeal was that he was supposed to be able to get along with the Unions. If he can't deliver the voters may decide to bring in someone else.

Well, you have to ask yourself if you'd want a mayor further to the left than David Miller. (Becasue what you are implying is that a guy to the left of Miller (aka Karl Marx himself) would run and steal the "union vote" from Miller and win.

I'd hate to see that.

Altough, if you could split the vote on the left, a more centrist candidate could run right up the middle and win. That would be a good thing.

 

[buckwheat1]

The city can never find someone decent to run against Miller

1 was Jane Pitfield I believe her name was
2 was John Tory I hear he may try again - he lost by 30000 votes
3 ???????

 

[Corey]

If Miller loses the election next year, I wouldn't be surprised if the so-called experts call this strike the seminal moment that led to his defeat.

Btw, can you dump garbage on his front yard?

It would be convenient for hobbyists who live in the High Park area.

 

[buckwheat1]

He's not going to lose unless there is a real component, so it's your job to find someone to run against him.

 

[blackrock13]

Hey some grubby old fart driving a big white truck just picked up my garbage. WHAT STRIKE? Did I miss something. Maybe they just know better than to piss me OFF!

I've ben seeing a lot of damaged bins lately held together with various assortments of repair. It's benn less tha 8 months since the start of this bin thing. Anyone knows what you do when yours dies?

 

[Corey]

He's not going to lose unless there is a real component, so it's your job to find someone to run against him.

JOHN TORY. IF YOU ARE READING THIS, PLEASE RUN NEXT YEAR !!!!