Sorry that horse won’t run. See Doron Behar, et al "The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event." The American Journal of Human Genetics 78 (3) The Khazars were a Turkic people, the genetic evidence is that Ashkenazi Jews have a Semitic ancestry.themexi said:
GAZA: STOP BLOCKADE AND WAR. Sign the Petition now!
- Thread starter Cinelli
- Start date
If you are mixed race you have Both ancestries do you not? If a Turkic people mesh with a Semetic one then thy would still be of Semetic ancestry. It is a possible explanation.Aardvark154 said:
I'm basically agreeing with you & trying to help out by explaining to the totally anti ashkenazi camp that there may be some middle ground to consider but judging by your apparent all-or-nothing stance, anything less than total agreement with you doesn't appear to be good enough then tough.
The problem with the whole ancestry debate .... It doesn't matter.
Israel was formed and it exists and it is a Jewish democratic state. The sooner that the Palestinian extremists get that through their skulls and accept it, the quicker there will be peace for both peoples.
Israel was formed and it exists and it is a Jewish democratic state. The sooner that the Palestinian extremists get that through their skulls and accept it, the quicker there will be peace for both peoples.
That is a good point. However to help the situation it can be useful to hit every negative argument point for point & fact for fact until all false arguments on either side fall away & only indisputable facts remain. Just saying {well that's just the way it is end of discussion} while factually correct will not only never be satisfying but will serve to embolden peoples resolve that there is either something to hide or worse. There should not be sacred cows in logic or reason or debate. I mean if you're going to be like that then you should have no problem if someone says " they took it & they have it now & they will have the right to it only so long as they can keep it" in response. Both, while factually true, are more inflammatory than constructive.basketcase said:
Personally as I've said before my interest is more academic than anything else. I could honestly give a fuck bout either side Politically. While personally I have never met a palestinian & I have a couple really close Jewish associates & friends I admit I'm kind of biased in that I hope my friends & their friends & families are safe my genuine interest pretty much ends there.
Neither Palestine nor Israel are my country; Canada is. While as human being both sides have both my general sympathies & best wishes the same as any other place in the world they are not my people & what they do is not my affair. I just wish both camps would leave the rest of the world out of it & settle it amongst themselves. No handouts, no aid, no museums, no candlelight vigils or tv specials, nothing. 2 enter 1 leaves thunderdome style. Let me know how it works out.
This whole global community business is an untenable sham anyhow. Why a dispute over some land between 2 peoples on the other side of the world should demand a moments notice is completely beyond me. There is nothing supplied from that piece of land or the people inhabiting it that me & mine can't do without that isn't supplied elsewhere. In fact the only export of any tangible value that we get over here from there is grief, bad news & bullshit & we have a plentiful enough of both right here.
The only people to blame here is hamas, a known terrorist organization who took over gaza, the most worthless piece of land in the world, by force. They continue to attack innocent civilians of Israel, have been responsible for numerous homicide bombings within Israel. If the people of gaza demand them to stop, hand what they took from the PA back, then maybe the borders will be re-open. Hamas has no business being in power.
Hey ads, you better be careful with that type of talk, Cinelli, Persis, or Woodpecker will now direct you to anti-Zionist, Jewish conspiracy websites.
Don't you know that the Hamas are only fighting for freedom, and would never do anything that could be construed as destructive.
Don't you know that the Hamas are only fighting for freedom, and would never do anything that could be construed as destructive.
I don't give 2 shits what anti-zionist sites they send me too. I know all about them. If they are smart, and go back in history, there was never an arab state called palestine. It was simply an area of land named palestine after the philistines, an ancient race living on the coast of the sea. more so in what is now lebanon. Jews have lived in the land of Israel since they returned from slavery in Egypt.
If the terrorists would simply stop and accept Israel, return the kidnapped soldiers from summer 06, and denouce terrorism, things would be better.
Also the majority of the palestinian would be population would probably be happier as citizens of israel then a typical arab islamic dictatorship.
If the terrorists would simply stop and accept Israel, return the kidnapped soldiers from summer 06, and denouce terrorism, things would be better.
Also the majority of the palestinian would be population would probably be happier as citizens of israel then a typical arab islamic dictatorship.
Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
You know Mexi, I'm actually rather mild mannered in person. However, the genetic evidence is fairly clear cut on this point.themexi said:
As I posted the other day - these carrying the water up-hill arguments are silly when there are things I find far more troubling and worthy of discussion such as Arab Christian flight from the Holy Land, increasing Islamic fundamentalism etc. . .
Aardvark154 said:
I agree that there is a certain level of absurdity to it. However I believe that there is some utility to hammering out every detail in arguments such as this because I think it would be nice if for once we were able to put arguments like this to rest once & for all.
I know it's arduous, frustrating & more, but if every detail of the truth (whatever it may be) were to be laid out in such a way as to be free from accusations of spin, censorship, etc, then it would be over along with all the accusations & counterproductive infighting. This is just one of those things that wont ever go away & stop poisoning the hearts of man until the body of secrecy & lies & half-truths lay totally beaten & the pure truth inside lays open & bare for all to see. Maybe then everyone can use the energy to more productive use & as n added bonus I wouldn't have to hear about it anymore.
Truthfully, I'm going to have to find the time to read the information myself. The theory I posited was more to refute the idea that the ashkenazim were mere pretenders. Personally even if it happened how I laid it out then that's still a very valid birthright claim to the land. On a side note from what I understand from an article I recently read it's the mothers side of the family that carries the line. If that's the case then it's pretty cool really when one considers the fidelity of mitochondrial DNA. Oddly enough my mother's mother's mother was Jewish. Hmm small world really.
Anywy I digress. I come off as a right prick in text way more often than I intend to sometimes. Honestly you dont come off as ungentlemanly, just obviously frustrated & tired of what seems like an ad nauseum debate that is pointles because it may never end. My major flaw is probably overly tenacious curiosity & a need to hammer away till I get the truth. Pity theres little use for flaws like that in tis world.
Peace
Aardvark... for those of us not conversant in genetics, can you please explainAardvark154 said:
It seems to me that Hanners research says that Jews and Arabs are of the same stock????
I am always shocked and awed that so much of the world puts so much stock on what has happened in the past.. or whose great great great grandfather screwed over who... And that generations later, nations are at war over the fact that in the 15th century, Fred stole Ali or Vishnu's apple.
After years of purposely not paying attention to these types of things for fear that it will somehow make me just as ignorant as the people who think it's important, I have come to realize that I might just be as ignorant as the people who I think are ignorant.
So aardvark (not sure if you are impartial or not, but you seem intelligent) can you fill in some of the details for me..
Is that you Mr. Bush???ads79 said:
The problem is not just Hamas or other organizations of its kind. And to get terrorists to accept Israel is pretty much impossible.
Unfortunately, the ME is going to continue like it has for the past 50 years until something really bad happens. OR a very brave and powerful politician risks his life to do something good.
HERE IS MY SUGGESTION:
1. Divert the money that the US and other nations provide Israel
2. Make the UN do something useful
3. Use a UN peacekeeping mission, take the US money and provide
every man, woman and child in "Palestine" with the basic necessities
of life.
4. Run every single terrorist group out of business, and provide peace
keeping troops in the region for 5 - 10 years until a stable government
is set up.
Its worked really well in Afganistan right? right?
The new DNA research, merely confirms what traditionaly had been believed - which is both Jews and Arabs are ethnicly Semitic. If you want to look at it in ‘literary terms’ both Arabs and Jews have for well over a millennium viewed themselves as descendants of Abraham.slowandeasy said:
The term "Semitic Peoples" has come to mean peoples related by background culture and language from the Middle East but started out in the 19th Century as a term to cover the language group related to Hebrew which today include Arabic, Aramaic, and Hebrew, as well as dead languages such as Akkadian and Phoenician.
None of this, however, should be taken to mean that there hasn't been intermarriage between various ethnic groups - and therefore a genetic shading across an area - such as Arabs from North Africa showing differences from Arabs from Iraq. As a good example of this (cutting the other way) look at Iranian Clerics showing by their headdress that they are descendants of Mohamad, the Persians are a proud people and Mohamad was Arab but. . .
The whole Khazar thing which has been referenced in previous posts is a late 20th Century development which has never had mainstrean scholarly suport It basicly stems from books such as Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe. It of course conveniently plays to certain anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli prejudices attempting to undercut the argument that modern Jews are the descendants of Biblical Jews. However, as I've written the DNA evidence cuts whatever legs it ever had from under it.
Many perhaps even most North Americans buy into Henry Ford's statement "History is bunk." In much of the rest of the world, however, particularly where ethnicity, language, and statehood are interrelated, history is a living thing and events of many hundreds of years ago are viewed as having direct relations with current events.
Zionists Do Not Represent Jews
ZIONISTS DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm
ZIONISTS DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm
That's BS. Tiny minority or Jews. It only proves that we aren't all the same.Cinelli said:
It's like linking to a group of Italians who don't eat pasta.
By the way if I'm not mistaken this is the group that attended the Holocaust conference hosted by Ahmedinajad, that great friend of the Jews who said the Holocaust was a myth and that Israel should be wiped off the map.
Cinelli, tell him I say hi next time you speak...
Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews worldwide protest the Zionist Atrocities in Gaza
Hey DATYdude !
You should check out these guys also !
NETUREI KARTA AROUND THE WORLD
http://www.nkusa.org/
Hey DATYdude !
You should check out these guys also !
NETUREI KARTA AROUND THE WORLD
http://www.nkusa.org/
Gog, Magog and the Kingdom of the Khazars
http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/library/khazars.html
By the close of the 1300s much of Western Europe was, for all practical purposes, completely empty of any perceivable Jewish population. What the Crusades failed to accomplish in the eradication of Western European Jewry the "Black Death" -- the Bubonic Plagues of the bacilli Pasteurella pestis -- virtually completed. Those Jews of that era suffered doubly; from the plague itself and from the proliferation of superstitious rumours that they were responsible for the disease by poisoning wells, just as they were blamed earlier for "the ritual slaughter of Christian children." This resulted in the burning alive of Jews in great numbers over the whole of Europe. 60 Later some of the Sephardic Jews of Spain immigrated northward, accounting for some of the smaller Jewish populations of Western Europe.
"Because of the long and varied history of the Jews," says the 2001 edition of World Book Encyclopedia, "it is difficult to define a Jew. There is no such thing as a Jewish race. Jewish identity is a mixture of religious, historical, and ethnic factors." Thus, those who might have truly claimed to be of the genealogy of Abraham and of true Semitic origin became extinct as a discernible race, being replaced by the white Khazars of the Transcaucasus, none of whose ancestors, as Benjamin Freedman phrases it, have ever placed a foot in the land of Palestine. This causes a serious problem with modern Christianity's infatuation with the Jews and their "return to their Homeland," begging the question: How can one return to a place where they have never been?
As late as 1960s the Sephardic Jews numbered only about 500,000, compared with the Ashkenazim of the same period estimated at approximately twelve million. 61
In defining the origins of the Ashkenazim, Alan Brook states that "The geographic location of the Ashkenaz, based on references in the Torah, may be centered around southern Russia, Armenia, and Asia Minor. The ashkaenoi (askae or askai) were the people also known as Phrygians or Mysians (Meshech)." Some historians claim that the name Ashkenaz applies exclusively to German Jews. However, more recent evidence shows that they had immigrated from the southern regions of Russia and western Asia and Asia Minor -- that region clearly identified as the location and origin of the ancient Khazars. The name originally indicated Iranians and was later given as the name of the god of Meshech, Men Askaenos. "It should also be pointed out," Brook adds, "that Ashkenaz did not become a definite Jewish designation for Germany until the eleventh century." 62
"According to the explanation by the Talmud," writes Hugo Freiherr, "Ashkenaz thus means a country near the Black Sea between Ararat and the Caucasus, within the original region of the Khazar empire." 63 This, again, is precisely the geographic locality of the Khazarian empire. The Talmudic observation is abetted by Scripture which names Ashkenaz as descending not from Shem but from Japheth through Gomer, and whose uncles were Magog and Tubal. (See Gen. 10:3)
Ashkenaz (alt. spelling: Ashchenaz) is mentioned in but one scripture other than 1 Chronicles 6:1, which is only another reference to the genealogy as descending from Japheth. In the book of Jeremiah the prophet, God announces that Israel is to call upon other nations as allies in bringing His judgments against Babylon. Among those allies, who are not part of Israel or Judah, and therefore could not be numbered as Jews, is Ashchenaz. (See Jer. 51:27)
UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, published a series of booklets entitled, The Race Question in Modern Science, in which oneof the authors, Harry Shapiro, states:
The wide range of variation between Jewish populations in their physical characteristics and the diversity of the gene frequencies of their blood groups render any unified racial classification for them a contradiction in terms. For although modern racial theory admits some degree of polymorphism or variation within a racial group, it does not permit distinctly different groups, measured by its own criteria of race, to be identified as one. To do so would make the biological purposes of racial classification futile and the whole procedure arbitrary and meaningless. ...despite the evidence efforts continue to be made to somehow segregate the Jews as a distinct racial entity. 64
Thus, attempting to claim the existence of a "race" of Jews has been proven to be an anthropological impossibility. Though their God consistently warned them against intermingling themselves amongst non-Jewish races, their miscegenistic tendencies are well documented, and has resulted in their complete erasure as a distinct, genetic peoples.
When, inevitably, there was mixing of Western European and Khazarian Jews, there was a notable difference between the educational levels of the two Jewish sub-cultures. The Khazars greatly admired their vastly less numerous but far more learned Western (German speaking) brethren and quickly adopted their language, education and cultural practices. This resulted, also, in an assimilation of their other talents in the area of economics, business and things politik.
"The Khazars were not descended from the Tribes," says Koestler, "but, as we have seen, they shared a certain cosmopolitanism and other social characteristics with their co-religionists." 65
Somewhere in the historical roots of the Ashkenazi Khazars there incubated a desire to possess a national Jewish homeland. That desire expressed itself in the form of a Messianic movement in twelfth century Khazaria that took on the texture of a "Jewish crusade" whose goal was the forcible subjugation of Palestine. A Khazar Jew named Solomon ben Duji instigated the movement and began an international correspondence with all the Jews of surrounding nations.
It seems that ben Duji was possessed of messianic delusions of his own in that he claimed that "the time had come in which God would gather Israel, His people from all lands to Jerusalem, the holy city, and that Solomon Ben Duji was Elijah, and his son the Messiah." 66
This desire for a Jewish homeland echoed down the centuries and found expression again. "It was among Ashkenazi Jews," says the Encyclopedia Americana, "that the idea of political Zionism emerged, leading ultimately to the establishment of the state of Israel....In the late 1960s, Ashkenazi Jews numbered some 11 million, about 84 percent of the world Jewish population." 67
"When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do." William Blake
http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/library/khazars.html
By the close of the 1300s much of Western Europe was, for all practical purposes, completely empty of any perceivable Jewish population. What the Crusades failed to accomplish in the eradication of Western European Jewry the "Black Death" -- the Bubonic Plagues of the bacilli Pasteurella pestis -- virtually completed. Those Jews of that era suffered doubly; from the plague itself and from the proliferation of superstitious rumours that they were responsible for the disease by poisoning wells, just as they were blamed earlier for "the ritual slaughter of Christian children." This resulted in the burning alive of Jews in great numbers over the whole of Europe. 60 Later some of the Sephardic Jews of Spain immigrated northward, accounting for some of the smaller Jewish populations of Western Europe.
"Because of the long and varied history of the Jews," says the 2001 edition of World Book Encyclopedia, "it is difficult to define a Jew. There is no such thing as a Jewish race. Jewish identity is a mixture of religious, historical, and ethnic factors." Thus, those who might have truly claimed to be of the genealogy of Abraham and of true Semitic origin became extinct as a discernible race, being replaced by the white Khazars of the Transcaucasus, none of whose ancestors, as Benjamin Freedman phrases it, have ever placed a foot in the land of Palestine. This causes a serious problem with modern Christianity's infatuation with the Jews and their "return to their Homeland," begging the question: How can one return to a place where they have never been?
As late as 1960s the Sephardic Jews numbered only about 500,000, compared with the Ashkenazim of the same period estimated at approximately twelve million. 61
In defining the origins of the Ashkenazim, Alan Brook states that "The geographic location of the Ashkenaz, based on references in the Torah, may be centered around southern Russia, Armenia, and Asia Minor. The ashkaenoi (askae or askai) were the people also known as Phrygians or Mysians (Meshech)." Some historians claim that the name Ashkenaz applies exclusively to German Jews. However, more recent evidence shows that they had immigrated from the southern regions of Russia and western Asia and Asia Minor -- that region clearly identified as the location and origin of the ancient Khazars. The name originally indicated Iranians and was later given as the name of the god of Meshech, Men Askaenos. "It should also be pointed out," Brook adds, "that Ashkenaz did not become a definite Jewish designation for Germany until the eleventh century." 62
"According to the explanation by the Talmud," writes Hugo Freiherr, "Ashkenaz thus means a country near the Black Sea between Ararat and the Caucasus, within the original region of the Khazar empire." 63 This, again, is precisely the geographic locality of the Khazarian empire. The Talmudic observation is abetted by Scripture which names Ashkenaz as descending not from Shem but from Japheth through Gomer, and whose uncles were Magog and Tubal. (See Gen. 10:3)
Ashkenaz (alt. spelling: Ashchenaz) is mentioned in but one scripture other than 1 Chronicles 6:1, which is only another reference to the genealogy as descending from Japheth. In the book of Jeremiah the prophet, God announces that Israel is to call upon other nations as allies in bringing His judgments against Babylon. Among those allies, who are not part of Israel or Judah, and therefore could not be numbered as Jews, is Ashchenaz. (See Jer. 51:27)
UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, published a series of booklets entitled, The Race Question in Modern Science, in which oneof the authors, Harry Shapiro, states:
The wide range of variation between Jewish populations in their physical characteristics and the diversity of the gene frequencies of their blood groups render any unified racial classification for them a contradiction in terms. For although modern racial theory admits some degree of polymorphism or variation within a racial group, it does not permit distinctly different groups, measured by its own criteria of race, to be identified as one. To do so would make the biological purposes of racial classification futile and the whole procedure arbitrary and meaningless. ...despite the evidence efforts continue to be made to somehow segregate the Jews as a distinct racial entity. 64
Thus, attempting to claim the existence of a "race" of Jews has been proven to be an anthropological impossibility. Though their God consistently warned them against intermingling themselves amongst non-Jewish races, their miscegenistic tendencies are well documented, and has resulted in their complete erasure as a distinct, genetic peoples.
When, inevitably, there was mixing of Western European and Khazarian Jews, there was a notable difference between the educational levels of the two Jewish sub-cultures. The Khazars greatly admired their vastly less numerous but far more learned Western (German speaking) brethren and quickly adopted their language, education and cultural practices. This resulted, also, in an assimilation of their other talents in the area of economics, business and things politik.
"The Khazars were not descended from the Tribes," says Koestler, "but, as we have seen, they shared a certain cosmopolitanism and other social characteristics with their co-religionists." 65
Somewhere in the historical roots of the Ashkenazi Khazars there incubated a desire to possess a national Jewish homeland. That desire expressed itself in the form of a Messianic movement in twelfth century Khazaria that took on the texture of a "Jewish crusade" whose goal was the forcible subjugation of Palestine. A Khazar Jew named Solomon ben Duji instigated the movement and began an international correspondence with all the Jews of surrounding nations.
It seems that ben Duji was possessed of messianic delusions of his own in that he claimed that "the time had come in which God would gather Israel, His people from all lands to Jerusalem, the holy city, and that Solomon Ben Duji was Elijah, and his son the Messiah." 66
This desire for a Jewish homeland echoed down the centuries and found expression again. "It was among Ashkenazi Jews," says the Encyclopedia Americana, "that the idea of political Zionism emerged, leading ultimately to the establishment of the state of Israel....In the late 1960s, Ashkenazi Jews numbered some 11 million, about 84 percent of the world Jewish population." 67
"When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do." William Blake
