Holocaust deniers.

[lenharper]

Originally Posted by lenharper


Uhhh... don't want to risk being called a moron again but how was the Holocaust a military action in the accepted definition of the term?

It sure wasn't soldier against soldier, or Army against Army and I think it does stretch the definition if we consider the Jews taken to labour and later, extermination camps, to be POW's.

And if we concede that attacks on civilian populations like the bombing campaigns on London, Dresden and Hiroshima could be considered military actions (in that there was a military objective, demoralize the civilian population to such an extent that they ask their governments to surrender) how did the confinement and extermination of the Jews meet Germany's military objectives.

Or are you saying that the extermination of the Jew was a prime military objective for Hitler's Germany from the beginning of hostilities?





QUOTE=handsome sugardaddy]No, what I am saying is that it was a political action carried out by the military.[/QUOTE]

So you agree that the extermination of the Jew was a prime political objective for Hitler's Germany and all we are arguing about is how they did it?

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Perhaps the photographer did not want to go inside the shower.
Why did Himmler order the destruction of the shower and crematorium area at Auschwitz for instance but left the rest of the camp intact?

Are there any documents that I can view, that openly discusses amongst Nazi officials the gassing of people? I have not been able to find any, if there are some links, I'd be very grateful for anyone to provide them so that I can read them.

Do you have a document that I can view that shows this order?

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Originally Posted by lenharper


Uhhh... don't want to risk being called a moron again but how was the Holocaust a military action in the accepted definition of the term?

It sure wasn't soldier against soldier, or Army against Army and I think it does stretch the definition if we consider the Jews taken to labour and later, extermination camps, to be POW's.

And if we concede that attacks on civilian populations like the bombing campaigns on London, Dresden and Hiroshima could be considered military actions (in that there was a military objective, demoralize the civilian population to such an extent that they ask their governments to surrender) how did the confinement and extermination of the Jews meet Germany's military objectives.

Or are you saying that the extermination of the Jew was a prime military objective for Hitler's Germany from the beginning of hostilities?





QUOTE=handsome sugardaddy]No, what I am saying is that it was a political action carried out by the military.

So you agree that the extermination of the Jew was a prime political objective for Hitler's Germany and all we are arguing about is how they did it?[/QUOTE]


Hitler clearly states in Mein Kemp that the extermination of the Jew is a primary objective.

Yes, I guess I am arguing as to how it was carried out, and to the actual numbers.

And yes, people will say that does killing one million Jews as opposed to 10 million Jews minimize the act.......of course not. As I said earlier, if one killing was done for ethnic cleansing purposes, thats already one death too many.

 

[lenharper]

Are there any documents that I can view, that openly discusses amongst Nazi officials the gassing of people? I have not been able to find any, if there are some links, I'd be very grateful for anyone to provide them so that I can read them.

Do you have a document that I can view that shows this order?

a good start, although it takes a bit to get through, is to read the minutes of the Wannsee Conference. You can find it by searching for Wannsee -- a quick and easy site which seems pretty straight up is "the history place" which seems to have the transcripts.

 

[pussygalore]

.

Do you have a document that I can view that shows this order?

No but attached may be of some assistance.

www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/ vanpelt/vanpelt-dismantel.shtml

 

[pussygalore]

Sorry that is not the complete URL that pops up but there is a report by a Professor Van Pelt which may provide some assistance.

 

[pussygalore]

Cool Dude, don't read into things too much. It was me being sarcastic. I can assure you from this entire thead, and any other I've written in, its always the same style, its always me.

Yeh and its always the same pic. Can we have a new one to help alleviate my headache

 

[strange1]

Lots of evidence concerning "gassing vans."

Regarding the gassing vans, precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):

If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. ...

And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both "top secret" and "only copy". This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as "processing" and the victims as "subjects" and "the load." (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. ...
The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. ...

As for Auchwitz,

An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)

A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):

We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent....
...

The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report, for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):

Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.
...

both quotes from http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

I also assume you choose to ignore the testimony from the various horses mouths that ocured at the numerous war crimes trials that have taken place and the numerous interviews that have taken place since then, the numerous statements of eyewitnesses

some other sources showing Nazi documents and translations.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/19411025-wetzel-no365/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19420821-badeanstalten/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19420901-kremer/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430129-vergasungskeller/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430624-inventory/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19440524-weisse/

Included in the main site http://www.holocaust-history.org/ are also complete war crime testimonies, essays, and various other documents.

Unless you believe that all the confessions were coerced and all the eyewitnesses lied, it it difficult to claim a lack of evidence.

 

[strange1]

Kathleen, as the English language is evolved from it's original form, words add different meanings or elicit specific imagery. It's one of the things that makes learning English as interesting as it is frustrating. Specificaly for Holocaust, burning and great loss of life both apply. It is still possible to talk about a holocaust in a seperate light than "The Holocaust".

To quote my old Websters,
holocaust - n a great destruction of life, esp. by fire.

Seems to fit the situation.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

a good start, although it takes a bit to get through, is to read the minutes of the Wannsee Conference. You can find it by searching for Wannsee -- a quick and easy site which seems pretty straight up is "the history place" which seems to have the transcripts.

Lenharper.....I read through this one, the link is below. It may be a condensed version, but there is absoutley no mention of gassing, not even any mention of killing in the camps. It does mention of mobile killing in the USSR though.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-wannsee.htm

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Didn't know that, thanks. I always see, and hear of WWII moments on that day. Seldom any events of WWI.

the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, for it is then that the armistce of WWI was signed.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Lots of evidence concerning "gassing vans."


As for Auchwitz,
both quotes from http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

I also assume you choose to ignore the testimony from the various horses mouths that ocured at the numerous war crimes trials that have taken place and the numerous interviews that have taken place since then, the numerous statements of eyewitnesses

some other sources showing Nazi documents and translations.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/19411025-wetzel-no365/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19420821-badeanstalten/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19420901-kremer/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430129-vergasungskeller/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430624-inventory/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19440524-weisse/

Included in the main site http://www.holocaust-history.org/ are also complete war crime testimonies, essays, and various other documents.

Unless you believe that all the confessions were coerced and all the eyewitnesses lied, it it difficult to claim a lack of evidence.

I am not saying any of these confessions were coereced, I'm just questioning why there are no photos of gassing, or any specific Nazi documents that discuss the gassing. From what I just read, there were spy holes at these gas chambers, so I'm just wondering why nobody ever took a photo of anyone being gassed. They took photos of corpses being piled up on one another, photos of being people shot, corpses in mass graves.......corpses being moved by a bulldozer. But no photos of people in gas chambers. Maybe just a quirk, but its these kind of quirks that make me think.

 

[strange1]

...
But to have certain events put aside for one people, becomes a reach. If Israel wants to have a Holocaust day, do so. But why should the nations of the world share in on it? ...

I would think mainly because the event had a significant impact on many parts of the world. This would include the countries where the loss of life took place, the countries where the people lost their neighbours and maybe friends, the countries that refused to take refugees before the war, the countries whose soldiers came across the survivors, and the countries who allowed survivors to come after the war. If all the world's Jews, Romani, homosexuals, Slavs, Poles, and other targeted groups lived in one place, it might be enough to let them remember on their own.

 

[lenharper]

Alright, you win....

the primary documents asterix referenced are all false. the code words were not code words. the people interviewed in "shoah" were lying. "hitler's secretary" was lying. the contractors who built the chambers and tested the gas had an ax to grind. Everyone who testified at nuremburg was doing so under duress. the wannsee conference was not the precursor for the attempted final solution because no one explicitly said the word gas. with the exception of four or five brave men, the entire historical community has been coerced by the international jewish media who rule the world from some hidden location in switzerland. everything I have learned about humanity's capacity for good, evil, forgiveness is false, cambodia didn't happen because no one has literally dug up the graves of the dead...

 

[pussygalore]

Prove this all, I again say is the burdon of those who believe it, not the other way around. I don't see how I debated and dropped. The number of Jews was present by me, and numbers were presented by others. How can we prove who is right there?
However, debating a gassing can be done still. Where are the millions of bodies? Proof of a working chamber?

Kathleen,

How is it you have determined the burden of proof?

 

[strange1]

Alright, you win....

the primary documents asterix referenced are all false. the code words were not code words. the people interviewed in "shoah" were lying. "hitler's secretary" was lying. the contractors who built the chambers and tested the gas had an ax to grind. Everyone who testified at nuremburg was doing so under duress. the wannsee conference was not the precursor for the attempted final solution because no one explicitly said the word gas. with the exception of four or five brave men, the entire historical community has been coerced by the international jewish media who rule the world from some hidden location in switzerland. everything I have learned about humanity's capacity for good, evil, forgiveness is false, cambodia didn't happen because no one has literally dug up the graves of the dead...

I thought it was Florida.

 

[lenharper]

I thought it was Florida.

that's what they want you to believe.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Alright, you win....

the primary documents asterix referenced are all false. the code words were not code words. the people interviewed in "shoah" were lying. "hitler's secretary" was lying. the contractors who built the chambers and tested the gas had an ax to grind. Everyone who testified at nuremburg was doing so under duress. the wannsee conference was not the precursor for the attempted final solution because no one explicitly said the word gas. with the exception of four or five brave men, the entire historical community has been coerced by the international jewish media who rule the world from some hidden location in switzerland. everything I have learned about humanity's capacity for good, evil, forgiveness is false, cambodia didn't happen because no one has literally dug up the graves of the dead...

Spare me the sarcasam. You asked me to look up the Wannsee Conference, I did. There is no mention of gassing there. Did I overlook something there?

I asked for a document from the Nazi's, that says they discussed the gassing of the Jews.

As I said before, the Nazi's did not try to hide anything. Hitler in Mein Kemp clearly states the elimination of the Jews. They took photos of shooting Jews in cold blood. Is there or is there not documents from Nazi officials stating the soloution to gas Jews?? If so, please provide them.

 

[strange1]

I am not saying any of these confessions were coereced, I'm just questioning why there are no photos of gassing, or any specific Nazi documents that discuss the gassing. From what I just read, there were spy holes at these gas chambers, so I'm just wondering why nobody ever took a photo of anyone being gassed. They took photos of corpses being piled up on one another, photos of being people shot, corpses in mass graves.......corpses being moved by a bulldozer. But no photos of people in gas chambers. Maybe just a quirk, but its these kind of quirks that make me think.

To quote some of the doccuments I mentioned

With reference to my letter of October 18, 1941, this is to inform you that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Führer Chancellery has agreed to collaborate in the production of the required shelters and gassing devices. At this time, the envisaged devices are not available in sufficient quantity; they will first have to be manufactured. Since in Brack's opinion, the manufacture of the devices in the Reich will cause much greater difficulties than doing it on the spot, Brack considers it most expedient to send his people to Riga, especially his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will effect all further steps there. Oberdienstleiter Brack points out that the procedure in question is not without danger, so that special protective measures are necessary.

The reinforced concrete ceiling of the morgue could not yet be eliminated due to the freezing weather. However, this is not significant, as the gassing cellar can be used for this purpose.

Due to the railway car prohibition, the company Topf and Sons could not deliver the aeration and deaeration equipment at the time demanded by the Zentralbauleitung. After the aeration and deaeration equipment arrive, however, installation will begin immediately, so that presumably by February 20, 1943, it will be completely ready for operation.

A couple of others

Toxicological analysis were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2 damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II. After scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal, 7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative analysis, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report, signed by Dr. Jan Z. Robel, was written on 15th December, 1945 and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn.

In 1945, an examination by the Institute of Judicial Expertise in Krakow of a sample of hair found in Auschwitz revealed the presence of compounds of prussic acid, the basic component of Zyklon B gas used in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. Traces of the acid were also found in metal objects found in the hair, such as pins, clasps, and gold-plated spectacle holders

source http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/

 

[strange1]

Does that see right? Memorials are needed to counter the views of deniers? Instead of spending Millions on these, research and set history right.

Millions have been spent on the studies of the Holocaust that have led to the accepted view and the memorials are a way to disseminatethe information to those who prefer not to surf the web and try and interpret the authority behind the claims. Unfortunately, millions more must be spent to counter the deniers.