Holocaust deniers.

[solitaria]

In your research, can you please find me proof of a gassing, or a chamber in operation. Not a building barracks, or something with an allie soldier inside.

You mean other than the testimony of Hoess and Eichmann, thousands of witnesses who claim that this was a reality, the original German blueprints of gas chambers and crematoriums, and the fact that the blown-up remnants showed that the plans were put in place? Why would the Germans design and create the gas chambers and crematoriums, ship millions of Jews to them, and not use them? Does that make sense to you? Then you have to consider all of the testimony that collaborates that this happened.

What do you mean by "proof" of a gassing or a chamber in operation? I thought this is what I gave you.

 

[Asterix]

You mean other than the testimony of Hoess and Eichmann, thousands of witnesses who claim that this was a reality, the original German blueprints of gas chambers and crematoriums, and the fact that the blown-up remnants showed that the plans were put in place? Why would the Germans design and create the gas chambers and crematoriums, ship millions of Jews to them, and not use them? Does that make sense to you? Then you have to consider all of the testimony that collaborates that this happened.

What do you mean by "proof" of a gassing or a chamber in operation? I thought this is what I gave you.

I don't think anything will satisfy her. If there was film footage of people being gassed, she would no doubt say it was staged.

Kathleen, let's cut to the chase and please answer me this.

1) Do you agree that millions of Jews died at the hands of the Nazis?
2) Do you agree it was a willful act and planned?
3) Do you agree that what happened constitutes an attempt at eradicating a people and was genocide?

 

[solitaria]

Good post. Now I ask you, do you not find it strange there is no pictures of people being gassed?? Shows them being burned in the pits, but nothing of them being gassed. Blueprints of gas chambers is one thing, but i've yet to see a Nazi document that clearly states the gassing of the Jews, nor any photos of such. It just baffles me as to why that is the case. There are literally photos of everything else.

If you killed a person would you take a picture of it to document the fact that you did? Why would you want to incriminate yourself? The same goes for the Nazis and their mass killings of the Jews. The gassings and incinerations took place underground so aerial photos weren't possible. Most of the Germans who were under orders wouldn't dare take pictures and would probably be shot if they tried bringing a camera to document what was going on. It was better off that the extermination was kept a secret for those in power since it meant less resistance, and if the war was lost, less evidence against them. That is why the Nazis blew up the gas chambers and crematoriums when they were being overtaken by the Russians. If they weren't gas chambers and crematoriums (like the specs show) why blow them up?

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

If you killed a person would you take a picture of it to document the fact that you did? Why would you want to incriminate yourself? The same goes for the Nazis and their mass killings of the Jews. The gassings and incinerations took place underground so aerial photos weren't possible. Most of the Germans who were under orders wouldn't dare take pictures and would probably be shot if they tried bringing a camera to document what was going on. It was better off that the extermination was kept a secret for those in power since it meant less resistance, and if the war was lost, less evidence against them. That is why the Nazis blew up the gas chambers and crematoriums when they were being overtaken by the Russians. If they weren't gas chambers and crematoriums (like the specs show) why blow them up?

Sorry, but your wrong with this argument. There are many photos of Jews being shot in cold blood. There is film footage of showing bulldozers pushing bodies into open pits for mass burials. Also, the Nazi's were not afraid of any 'incremination'. They believed they would be the rulers, win the war and they would answer to nobody but themselves. So, I'm sorry, but I don't by your reasoning.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

You mean other than the testimony of Hoess and Eichmann, thousands of witnesses who claim that this was a reality, the original German blueprints of gas chambers and crematoriums, and the fact that the blown-up remnants showed that the plans were put in place? Why would the Germans design and create the gas chambers and crematoriums, ship millions of Jews to them, and not use them? Does that make sense to you? Then you have to consider all of the testimony that collaborates that this happened.

What do you mean by "proof" of a gassing or a chamber in operation? I thought this is what I gave you.

Let me ask you a question. What did they do with the jewish children that were sent to the camps? Once you answer, I will answer back the point i'm going to make.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

I don't think anything will satisfy her. If there was film footage of people being gassed, she would no doubt say it was staged.

Kathleen, let's cut to the chase and please answer me this.

1) Do you agree that millions of Jews died at the hands of the Nazis?
2) Do you agree it was a willful act and planned?
3) Do you agree that what happened constitutes an attempt at eradicating a people and was genocide?

I'm not Kathleen, but I'll give you my answers for the above questions.

1) Yes........I would just like to get a figure that i'm comfortable with.

2) Without a doubt. Hitler in Mein Kemp clearly announced to the world those intentions.

3) Once again, yes, there is much documentation from the Nazi's themselves that collaborates this.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

You mean other than the testimony of Hoess and Eichmann, thousands of witnesses who claim that this was a reality, the original German blueprints of gas chambers and crematoriums, and the fact that the blown-up remnants showed that the plans were put in place? Why would the Germans design and create the gas chambers and crematoriums, ship millions of Jews to them, and not use them? Does that make sense to you? Then you have to consider all of the testimony that collaborates that this happened.

What do you mean by "proof" of a gassing or a chamber in operation? I thought this is what I gave you.

The Nazi's built the gas chambers to combat the typeus that was rampant in the camps. Wether it was used for gassing of humans later on, that i'm not convinced about.

 

[Asterix]

I'm not Kathleen, but I'll give you my answers for the above questions.

1) Yes........I would just like to get a figure that i'm comfortable with.

2) Without a doubt. Hitler in Mein Kemp clearly announced to the world those intentions.

3) Once again, yes, there is much documentation from the Nazi's themselves that collaborates this.

Fine, and thank you for an honest response. Then perhaps someone could also answer this question; given you agree with those three points, what of any significance are we debating?

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Fine, and thank you for an honest response. Then perhaps someone could also answer this question; given you agree with those three points, what of any significance are we debating?

The perceived facts as are published. How many were actually killed, and by what means.

 

[Asterix]

The perceived facts as are published. How many were actually killed, and by what means.

To me the intent, and the implementation of that intent, are what's critical. The fact that they ran out of time before completing the job, or what the exact methods they used to carry out that plan, pale in comparison to the act itself and the result.

 

[zaig]

Now I have heard everything. The gas chambers were built to stop typhus from spreading. Sugardaddy, I think you and Kathleen belong together. And as far as Kathleen is concerned about modern Germany and the guilt of their previous generations, and the fact that there are no more Nazis in Germany but Holocaust memorials spring up all the time, I say GREAT.
Please remember that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Really I feel sorry for both of you and your inability to understand mounds of historical documentation of these events. I guess the Nurenberg Trials were nothing more than a modern day Salem Witch hunt. Or maybe, just maybe everyone was just following orders. Give your head a shake.
As I said before, you may not wish to have this moniker attached to yourselves, but you are the worst kind of anti-semites. Most anti-semites are less than intellegent people, but both have you have shown a degree of intellegence not normally associated with bigotry and hate.
Kathleen I really feel sorry for you carrying around a countrys' guilt all by yourself. You also may have the distinction of being the only person ever to fall asleep during Schindlers List.
Its because of people such as yourselves that we have to keep reminding each generation of these past atrocities, otherwise before you know it, they will be teaching that the camps were just that, camps with great food, recreational activities, a respite from the events of the day.
I know I shouldn't say this, but you people are imbeciles.
And if you tell me to F off, I understand.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Now I have heard everything. The gas chambers were built to stop typhus from spreading. Sugardaddy, I think you and Kathleen belong together. And as far as Kathleen is concerned about modern Germany and the guilt of their previous generations, and the fact that there are no more Nazis in Germany but Holocaust memorials spring up all the time, I say GREAT.
Please remember that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Really I feel sorry for both of you and your inability to understand mounds of historical documentation of these events. I guess the Nurenberg Trials were nothing more than a modern day Salem Witch hunt. Or maybe, just maybe everyone was just following orders. Give your head a shake.
As I said before, you may not wish to have this moniker attached to yourselves, but you are the worst kind of anti-semites. Most anti-semites are less than intellegent people, but both have you have shown a degree of intellegence not normally associated with bigotry and hate.
Kathleen I really feel sorry for you carrying around a countrys' guilt all by yourself. You also may have the distinction of being the only person ever to fall asleep during Schindlers List.
Its because of people such as yourselves that we have to keep reminding each generation of these past atrocities, otherwise before you know it, they will be teaching that the camps were just that, camps with great food, recreational activities, a respite from the events of the day.
I know I shouldn't say this, but you people are imbeciles.
And if you tell me to F off, I understand.

Zaig,

Why don't you try puting forth some good argument as others have, instead of your idle ramblings.

You clearly havn't read the entire thread, therefore I will not tell you to fuck off, instead.......suck my dick.

 

[pussygalore]

Now I have heard everything.

I doubt it! More to come.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

To me the intent, and the implementation of that intent, are what's critical. The fact that they ran out of time before completing the job, or what the exact methods they used to carry out that plan, pale in comparison to the act itself and the result.

I can respect that. And I will not dispute that.

 

[solitaria]

Sorry, but your wrong with this argument. There are many photos of Jews being shot in cold blood. There is film footage of showing bulldozers pushing bodies into open pits for mass burials. Also, the Nazi's were not afraid of any 'incremination'. They believed they would be the rulers, win the war and they would answer to nobody but themselves. So, I'm sorry, but I don't by your reasoning.

The same people that were responsible for the shootings weren't the same as those who took the pictures. It is far more easier to capture a shooting on film than a gassing since the shooting can be done out in the open in public where many people can potentially view it over a gassing done in a heavily controlled potentially lethal environment (for everyone) of an underground sealed off bunker. It is the difference between an open and closed environment that is toxic and deadly to those who would take the pictures. How many pictures do you see of the hundreds of thousands of people in the process of dying from the Atomic bomb dropped on Japan or of the Kurds actually dying from the chemical weapons used on them by Saddam Hussein? Do you question those events in history too?

This also begs the question (that I have already asked) of why the Nazi's blew up the buildings in question if mass exterminations weren't being done in those areas and they didn't fear incriminating themselves? Also, why did many of the Nazi leaders commit suicide? Of course they feared the potential consequences of their actions. Also, and like I said, it was far more efficient for the mass extermination process if the potential victims didn't know what would happen beforehand otherwise there would be huge resistance every step of the way making it impossible to do. Imagine 8 guys with guns trying to get 50 to 200 people to walk into a gas chamber willingly. Would you go without a fight? I wouldn't.

 

[Asterix]

I can respect that. And I will not dispute that.

Well, then I will ask a fourth question.

4) Do you agree that if the Nazis had not been defeated in the battlefield, that they would have continued to track down every Jew possible, until they were all dead?

 

[solitaria]

The Nazi's built the gas chambers to combat the typeus that was rampant in the camps. Wether it was used for gassing of humans later on, that i'm not convinced about.

They can tell from the chemical composition of the walls that the chambers were used for gassing humans. Also I think Hitler made it pretty clear (from reading and listening to his speeches) what the intent was and when.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

The same people that were responsible for the shootings weren't the same as those who took the pictures. It is far more easier to capture a shooting on film than a gassing since the shooting can be done out in the open in public where many people can potentially view it over a gassing done in a heavily controlled potentially lethal environment (for everyone) of an underground sealed off bunker. It is the difference between an open and closed environment that is toxic and deadly to those who would take the pictures. How many pictures do you see of the hundreds of thousands of people in the process of dying from the Atomic bomb dropped on Japan or of the Kurds actually dying from the chemical weapons used on them by Saddam Hussein? Do you question those events in history too?

This also begs the question (that I have already asked) of why the Nazi's blew up the buildings in question if mass exterminations weren't being done in those areas and they didn't fear incriminating themselves? Also, why did many of the Nazi leaders commit suicide? Of course they feared the potential consequences of their actions. Also, and like I said, it was far more efficient for the mass extermination process if the potential victims didn't know what would happen beforehand otherwise there would be huge resistance every step of the way making it impossible to do. Imagine 8 guys with guns trying to get 50 to 200 people to walk into a gas chamber willingly. Would you go without a fight? I wouldn't.

Much of what you are saying took place in circa 1944, when yes, the Nazi leaders saw the end was near for them. The chambers were built before then, there are no documents from the Nazi's that say they are going to gas the Jews. Remember these are the same people, who openly stated that they rid all of Germany and German occupied lands of the Jews. If their going to so blatanly state this, why would they refrain, or keep this gassing all hush hush?? It dosn't make sense to me.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Well, then I will ask a fourth question.

4) Do you agree that if the Nazis had not been defeated in the battlefield, that they would have continued to track down every Jew possible, until they were all dead?

Yes, they clearly stated that. Would they have gone to the USA, or just stop at German territories, that I don't know. But I will concede that if they conquered Europe, who's to say that they would stop there.

 

[cyrus]

Civilian casualty figures for most wars are impossible to verify. Historians and governments guessed at them. Some guess are due to the fact that the records of the people living in an area were themselves destroyed, and sometimes they were never counted to hide the true losses from their own people as well as to keep those numbers from enemy.
Finding paper records is also difficult especially with the passage of time. Secondary sources like those from church records, tax rolls, emigration records and others that tend to identify individuals can fill some of the gap probably enough to form statistically valid samples.
US Military research and Archives put the number of Civilian dead in WWII estimates to around 9 million in total, from which 3 millions were chines and another 2.5 millions Russian civilians alone. This is about one half of what others originally claimed.
So please people, and I don’t care if you are a German or a Jew, let’s put these numbers in a proper perspective. Did Nazis systematically kill Jewish people? Yes they did!
Did they kill another 6 million, well that is a lot of numbers and as we know a lot of people were killed due to indiscriminate bombings, artillery barrages, and savage fighting and even A-bomb! You do the math!

Major #'s
Germany- civilians 1,080,000
Russia- civilians 2,500,000
Japan- civilians 1,485,000
China- civilians 3,000,000

Killed in Action-KIA 16,289,234
Wounded in action another 21,000,000