Holocaust deniers.

[slowandeasy]

I also object to you saying "people like you". There is a genocide occuring in Africa as we speak...........WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT??? Or are you just happy that your not the one targeted????

Sorry that you object... but if the shoe fits....

What am I doing about it? I am not there am I???? But once again, you prove my point... We in North America are full of wealth, yet we allow massive starvation in large parts of the world because it does not affect our world.... it's not something that I am proud of, but such is life... i am still
trying to figure out how to get my golf handicap under 20...

 

[slowandeasy]

I question murder methods, and means of death. I question numbers.
But I'm not suggestion there was no intent.

If a Jew died in a camp from disease, or starvation, I'd still blame the Nazis because the man should have been in his home, not a camp to begin with.
As for intent, I doubt fixed gassings, but not mobile ones. If you put 50 men in a truck to be gassed, thats intent. If you lined up a row of men and shot them, there is intent. So yes, I won't insult you with suggesting otherwise.

Once again... you use conjecture not definitive??? "If a Jew died....." This is the type of stuff deniers typically use to try to diffuse the issue or create doubt...

Kathleen, I do not know what your intent is. It might be that you are just naive to the type of manipulation that many of us fear... however, your posts are filled with the type of manipulation that is often used to fuel hate and defend hate mongering... whether it is your intent or not, that is the effect that your posts have on many of us...

 

[strange1]

1) Balfour Declaration, looking for an opinion of it. The effects and influence it had on Britian as Germany came to power.

>Arthur James Balfour was instrumental in promoting the Jewish cause and on November 2, 1917, Balfour issued a historic letter called the Balfour Declaration which pledges British support for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The letter was presented to the head of the Zionist Federation in Great Britain, Lord Rothschild.

Several reasons have been cited for the Balfour Declaration, some political and one which involved a Zionist scientist called Chaim Weizmann who had helped the British in their war effort by developing a process to synthesize acetone, an ingredient used in making powerful explosives. The discovery at that time was like that of the atomic bomb during World War 2, for it gave the Allied Forces a decisive edge over their opponents. Whatever were the reasons, we know that it was the hand of God who had moved events and key people to bring about His purpose in these last days. Chaim Weizmann later became the first President (1948-52) of the new State of Israel

Morgenthau-Plan was considered, and pushed very hard. Churchill seemed to be a blocking stone to it passing by the Allie leaders, I think it deserves more feedback.
Same with Louis Nizer & What to do with Germany 1944.
Or Theodor N. Kaufman-Germany Must Perish.

Thoughts would be good.

I am having some trouble understanding what relevence these have to a discussion about holocaust deniers, except as an attempt to offset the blame.

As for my opinions, the Balfour declaration is a historical fact; it happened. The Holocaust is a historical fact; it happened. Morenthau's plan and the ideas of Nizer and Kaufman were ideas; they did not happen.
from wikipedia

Once the plan went public in September, 1944, much protest and disagreement arose. As of the end of September, the plan was set aside without any official discussion by the advisory boards. However, it was not unnoticed by Hitler's propaganda machine, and probably only inspired more desperate resistance by German forces against the Allied onslaught until the very end of the war.

I also wonder about the site you have chosen to reference. It's obviously from a religous source of a messianic christianity, that also seems to accept polygamy. At least the site claims it's the hand of god that created Israel, not a Jewish conspiracy.

Israel is certainly one of the main guideposts to watch for the unfolding of God's plan and we must continue to be watchful for the Lord will surely come, at an hour we are not aware of. So let us keep our ears tuned to news from Israel.

Rev Anna Lim
BA(B.S), B.Arch,M.Th
Vice Principal
El-Shaddai Conventions

Copyright © Anna Lim, 1998
El-Shaddai Conventions, The Training Arm of our Vision.

Although I see no errors in the basic facts presented, I do question the bias of the group. It seems to me that it's motivations are religous, not historic.

 

[strange1]

How much of the thread did you read? I can tell you this, Kathleen does not claim the Jews had accussed the Germans of a Holocaust in WWI. Germany had nothing to do with Jews in 1919. That was Stalin. I'm not sure why that site would suggest German in both holocausts.

Lenin was still the head honcho in '19. Stalin became generals secretary in 1922.

 

[strange1]

It's says 6 million are dying. Now you need to find how many survived.
My finding was 'well over 5 million lost' which could easily rounded off to six after the war. Does 1600 even remotely sound right?

First, this text was from a politicians speech; it seems obvious to me that it would include a significant amount of political rhetoric. In all the searching I did, this is the only historical mention of a holocaust in WWI. I would like to see the source that gave you the number of over 5 million because the rest of history seems to have ignored it.

Beyond this, even if there were 6 million dead, it would mean almost every Jew in the Soviet sphere would be dead. The remaining five or six must have had a hell of a lot of sex to replenish the population in time for WWII.

I would be absolutely sure that some Jews were killed fighing for Russia (as well as for Germany) in the First World War. I am sure that there have been numerous pogroms, killing Jews, under the Tsar, and later. The number of deaths being 6 million in the war/ inter war period is too ridiculous to have gone unnoticed. The only motivations behind this hugely unsupported claim could be:
1) to show Jews as liars or manipulators,
2) to claim that there couldn't be 6 million killed under the nazis because the Russians and Ukranians already killed them, or
3) to deflect attention from the Holocaust, making the Nazi's only seem as bad as everyone else.

Whichever option it is, it is still irrelevant and spiteful.

 

[strange1]

...
There is no agenda. I've said repeatedly, as long as media, and pople continue to it bring up, force education, recieve aid, and do news articles on it, others with question why. Why after over 60 long yrs must this one thing contine to this day?
There is much proof to challenge the number being way off. Yet movies, news and schools still show and teach otherwise. Why won't officials allow researches to test the grounds of the camps for mass graves?

The people who question the facts of the Holocaust, such as numbers, intent, and methods of death, and promote views that conflict with the accepted version are known as Revisionists. As for the people who are producing these works, there is a definite lack of academic authority.

But still, what historians? There is not a single Ph.D. historian in the revisionist community. Faurisson was a professor of literature, Zündel was a photo-retoucher by trade, Butz is a professor of electrical engineering, Stäglich is a judge, O'Keefe is a Harvard dropout, and Cole is a high-school dropout. Raven is a former writer for stand-up comics and automotive magazines.

Irving is a journalist and historical writer, and Weber has a Master's degree in history. They are as close as any "revisionist" comes to being a historian.

Ironically, one of the few other "revisionists" with an academic degree in history is Leuchter, who is presented as an expert engineer! (He has a Bachelor's degree.)

Of the millions(?) of historians who've earned a graduate level degree since the war, I find it enlightening how few are promoting the "questioning" of the accepted facts.

 

[strange1]

... In regards to Morenthau's plan and the ideas of Nizer and Kaufman, I realize they never happend, but this were pretty extreme and serious thought. Including some from world leaders.
I mean the idea to sterilize, and wipe out the German race.. might deserve some consideration. Even writing such things down. You have to know that men condisered such evil ideas, and actions. ..

I agree with you that these plans were idiotic and if implemented, criminal. Unfortunately, part of government, especially bureaucratic ones, is to come up with all sorts of ideas and plans, and to play what if. (such as the pentagon having a variety of plans to invade Canada) For every policy decision that is made, there are likely dozens, if not hundreds of ideas put forward in writing. At least the Allied leadership and bureaucracy were good enough to ignore these ideas. The idea, as well as many hundreds of thousands of rejected plans, went the way of the dodo. As far as I could tell, the only reason that they are even mentioned are/were for the Nazis to use as propaganda in the last days of the war and the reasons I mentioned a couple of posts ago.

(edited for spelling)

 

[pussygalore]

Just doing my best to find resources in the middle. Nothing pro-Holocaust, and not anti.

Kathleen,

If you want a historical resource down the middle I do not think you are going to find it in either the IHR or ADL/Jewish sites to your satisfaction.

The most recent definitive work I am aware of by a historian is "Hitler" (2 volumes) by Ian Kershaw published in late 1998 and 2000. That together with the notes and sources should give you all the information you need to make an informed judgment. Of course all historians have biases but I think this would be beneficial if your goal is to become more informed.

Also you can use these volumes in your weight training

 

[beenthere]

Kathleen - Holocaust - Someone asked does it matter if it was 6 million or 4 million? Another laughed at the idea the Jews helped fund Hitler and the holocaust.
I think the term 6 million quote is critical, and in fact key for a huge reason.
WWII wasn't the first time that Jews claimed exactly 6,000,000 of their number were eradicated in genocide.
In 1919 Jews made the exact, same claim but they would like us to forget about that.
For the permission to return to the Promised Land, God allegedly demanded from Jews a "6-Million-Holocaust-Offering". Burnt offering to be exact.

It is more important to eradicate ignorance than to destroy people, for ignorance is the more dangerous evil.

Forgetting the attrocities of the past can only allow them to happen again and again as they still do be against jews, blacks or any other people.

 

[beenthere]

Kathleen - Yet tonight, I find another. It backs my point, the world will never let this rest. Now Israel wants a National Holiday for the Holocaust.
Israel seeks annual U.N. holocaust memorial day

What is being asked is that there be an international day to remember the Holocaust, where approximately 50 million people from many nations lost their lives.

 

[Cool Dude]

Interesting.

I can tell you this, Kathleen does not claim the Jews had accussed the Germans of a Holocaust in WWI.

This quote begs the question, who else is using your handle to post and debate this and other issues?

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

You know, since starting this huge debate, I've posted some current news articles like new memorials going up, and even the survivor of Auschwitz who managed to see all kinds of horrors, and survived in a camp longer then it was in operation. A story none would comment on.

Yet tonight, I find another. It backs my point, the world will never let this rest. Now Israel wants a National Holiday for the Holocaust.
Israel seeks annual U.N. holocaust memorial day

From the story..
It is a universal resolution," said Israeli Deputy U.N. Ambassador Daniel Carmon in an interview. "A nonpolitical remembrance of the most atrocious event that happened in the last century -- it should be acknowledged by the United Nations."



I don't understand how this one atrocity can take presedent over all others this last 100yrs.

But Israel would like to see the world body devote more resources to the subject, including worldwide education programs, encouraging the preservation of Nazi camps and rejecting denials the holocaust took place.

More resources still? Do you know that the US has twenty three (23) Holocaust Museums alone? I can't imagine how many memorials world wide. The rejecting denials, is a polite way of saying 'passing laws to forbid questions'.
Guys, I doubt after this debate more then 1 new person might agree with me. But I have no right to force an idea in your heads. No more then my government should take a thought from mine.
If we begin giving up freedom of speech, bad things will follow.

We have a War Holiday - Remembrance Day. Its the day we remember all the victims of WW2, and include everyone. I don't believe the holocaust is so special, that it now needs its own day.

Actually Kathleen, Remebrance day came about to remember the events of WWI. It later became the day to remember all dead from all the wars.

Remebrance day should be the one day, and be a world wide 'holiday'. Not just a note on the calendar, but effectively a day the world should stop and reflect apon all the wars that mankind has created. There is no need to for a Holocaust day.

 

[slowandeasy]

What is a denier to you?
If its someone who believes the numbers are off, then I would say very few serious believe exactly 6 million people died.
If it's someone who believes the entire event was fabricated, that not more then a few hundred Jews died, then thats not the case with me.

Why someone bring in hate to this topic, I can't understand. But it seems to be a common norm for those who will not allow the topic to be touched.

There is no agenda. I've said repeatedly, as long as media, and pople continue to it bring up, force education, recieve aid, and do news articles on it, others with question why. Why after over 60 long yrs must this one thing contine to this day?
There is much proof to challenge the number being way off. Yet movies, news and schools still show and teach otherwise. Why won't officials allow researches to test the grounds of the camps for mass graves?

I have not looked up the definition of holocaust denier.. I do not even think that denier is a word..... regardless... I will look up what the experts say and then post it for you.....

A rudimentary definition would be simply that a holocaust denier is someone who denies that a very large number of Jews were killed/executed/gassed etc by the Nazi, or that Nazi hunted, captured, corralled Jews to use them as slave labour and then kill them once they were deemed expendable, or that many (millions?) died while in German custody....

We are now at 40-something pages on this topic... I did not just bring up the topic of hate casually...

Again, perhaps you do not understand the other perspective or simply choose not to pay attention to the real deniers, the ones that say that the topic of the holocaust is one that was created by Jewish interests, propogated by Jewish media and sold to the public to further enhance Jewish interests... They believe that Jews were not targeted for extinction by the Nazi and that very few Jews were actually killed by the Nazi...
They take on the same tone as yourself, and they hide their agenda under the pretext of "research for the truth"... Much of what you have written so far is identical to what they have preach and in the manner that they preach it...

They continually shift from one topic to the other once it becomes sensitive, or they cannot prove their allegations.... You cite a number of sources and some are really weak. You presented a number of facts that were quickly debated and then you dropped the issue (i.e. the # of Jews in Europe before
the war). At one point, you indicated that you do not believe that there was a holocaust.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

The people who question the facts of the Holocaust, such as numbers, intent, and methods of death, and promote views that conflict with the accepted version are known as Revisionists. As for the people who are producing these works, there is a definite lack of academic authority.



Of the millions(?) of historians who've earned a graduate level degree since the war, I find it enlightening how few are promoting the "questioning" of the accepted facts.

Can we agree that a person who questions 'facts' may be a revisionist but not necessarily a denier?

I am one of those historians to have earned a graduate level degree. Alot of my fellow historians fear questioning information regarding the Holocaust. The reason being, it is a very sensitive subject, and this thread is an example. A number of people have come to post, questioning the agenda of Kathleen, or myself, or anyone else that is seeking to understand confliciting reports. Someone asks, was there 6 million Jews 'exterminated' by the Germans during WWII, and they are branded as anti-semite, hate mongers etc.

There are revisionists for virtually all aspects of history. Here in the United States, there is now a big movement to teach in the schools, aside from Darwins theory of evolution the theory of Intelligent Design. Coloumbus was a revionist.

 

[WhaWhaWha]

Whether you are bored or skeptical with the mantra of "six million", one thing is for sure. The figure is accurate. This of course does not include the additional 4 million blacks, gays, poles, gypsies, handicapped also brutally exterminated. This alone was responsible for the redistribtion of the western world's wealth and the sudden "economic reocovery" that followed the war. Not to mention the hurry to put this all in the past while survivors were still licking their wounds. The world wants to forget the Shoa because it cannot fathom atoning for the political systems and structures that enabled it and would enable it again. The world was in a deep depression and change was imminent. The masses were vulnerable to the zealous babblings of a madman who wanted to heal the political world, and was willing to cut through the world's population to do it. Allowing world events to unfold according to someone else's plan, and blindly abiding the law are not a good formula for peace, but for slavery, subservience, and totalitarianism. Tired of hearing the rhetoric? Don't want to hear it anymore? Thats why it keeps happening again and again.

 

[pussygalore]

This quote begs the question, who else is using your handle to post and debate this and other issues?

To come to Kathleen's defence on this accusation,I have been quoted erroneously in a previous post and not maliciously. Some of us are not as adept at how to use the quote function. Hopefully I have now figured it out.

You know, since starting this huge debate, I've posted some current news articles like new memorials going up, and even the survivor of Auschwitz who managed to see all kinds of horrors, and survived in a camp longer then it was in operation. A story none would comment on.

The fact a man in his 80's mistates his length of time in confinement (or God help us is misquoted) but remembers the horrors in detail is not conclusive. As you get older you will understand the difference in cognitive functions.

Kathleen, I am thinking your issue is not so much the Nazi intent, practices, procedures or even numbers but rather why this particular event (as opposed to other genocides) is still in the forefront of our collective mindset. You seem to blame the Zionist conspiracy and influence i.e. Balfour Declaration, impact on US policy im the Middle East. No doubt they are well organised, well funded and have been persecuted in varying degrees throughout history with the understandable fear of a reoccurence.

However I think the continuing interest in this particular event is to a large extent because it was conducted by a major Western civilised industrially developed culturally rich nation's government. It is in other words too close to home. Focus on events in Africa, Bosnia, Russia etc are not of the same enormity within our (the West's) collective sensibility/shame.

 

[strange1]

I find it believable that there are some historians who question the holocaust out of purely non-biased motivations. The unfortunate thing is that those WITH motivations utilize this research to promote anti-semitic views. How many revisionist reports have you heard about the number of people killed at Gettysberg or the methods and motivations of cerimonial killings used by the Aztec; these historians do exist. Simply put, the vast majority of historians who seek to revise views on history go unnoticed. There are no political agendas supported by research on the history of agriculture but there are many that are promoted by those who question or deny the Holocaust. Try searching many of the revisionist claims that have been discussed in this thread and you will be amazed at how of many sites blatently and intentionaly go out of their way to spread racist views about Jews.

If these revisionists are serious historians, they should make an effort to distance themselves from the radicals who support them but I have yet to read any who say "Here is the support for my claims but I despise those who use them for their own benefit"

 

[strange1]

People have commented on the number of memorials to the Holocaust. Why is it so important to remember the 12 million or so people killed by the Nazis? The answer should be obvious after reading this thread. These memorials are needed to counter the views of the many who deny some aspect of the Holcaust, whether it is the numbers, the methods, the motivation, or if it happened, and more importantly, to fight against those who utilize anything they can to smear the Jews.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Whether you are bored or skeptical with the mantra of "six million", one thing is for sure. The figure is accurate. This of course does not include the additional 4 million blacks, gays, poles, gypsies, handicapped also brutally exterminated. This alone was responsible for the redistribtion of the western world's wealth and the sudden "economic reocovery" that followed the war. Not to mention the hurry to put this all in the past while survivors were still licking their wounds. The world wants to forget the Shoa because it cannot fathom atoning for the political systems and structures that enabled it and would enable it again. The world was in a deep depression and change was imminent. The masses were vulnerable to the zealous babblings of a madman who wanted to heal the political world, and was willing to cut through the world's population to do it. Allowing world events to unfold according to someone else's plan, and blindly abiding the law are not a good formula for peace, but for slavery, subservience, and totalitarianism. Tired of hearing the rhetoric? Don't want to hear it anymore? Thats why it keeps happening again and again.

You make some good points.

First off, we can't say the 6 million is a accurate number. That is a fact. There isn't 6 million death records, the 6 million number is a best 'guess' estimate.

The world economay, more specifically, the Western nations economies were better after the war. Don't understand though by your implication that the deaths of these people was directly responsible for the recovery.

Now i'll adress a point, that i'll admit first off, then I do not have any facts to present, but will point it out by reason of logic. I do not believe that the German people, nor the rest of the world really knew what was going on at these concentration camps, until the war was over. Here is my logic. If the German people knew of the going on's would also imply that the Jews also would have known. If they knew, that these were death camps, as opposed to labour camps, would you not as a person, flee for your life?? I am having trouble believing that they would simply wait for the Nazi's to come and get them from their homes. The world has condemned the Nazi's, and in most civilized nations, the promotion of hate is a illegal activity. Nazism is illegal I believe throughout the world.

The world remembers all its war dead, soldiers and victims on November 11th of each year. That should be enough of a reminder for everyone.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

I find it believable that there are some historians who question the holocaust out of purely non-biased motivations. The unfortunate thing is that those WITH motivations utilize this research to promote anti-semitic views. How many revisionist reports have you heard about the number of people killed at Gettysberg or the methods and motivations of cerimonial killings used by the Aztec; these historians do exist. Simply put, the vast majority of historians who seek to revise views on history go unnoticed. There are no political agendas supported by research on the history of agriculture but there are many that are promoted by those who question or deny the Holocaust. Try searching many of the revisionist claims that have been discussed in this thread and you will be amazed at how of many sites blatently and intentionaly go out of their way to spread racist views about Jews.


If these revisionists are serious historians, they should make an effort to distance themselves from the radicals who support them but I have yet to read any who say "Here is the support for my claims but I despise those who use them for their own benefit"

I understand your point, but the reason why Holocaust historians go noticed, is because it is such a sensitive subject. And in terms of history timeline, the Holocaust is not that old, as opposed to Gettsburg and other large scale killings in history.

Here's a quick example. If you do a search on Yahoo for Holocaust revisionists, you get 190,000 links, for Gettysberg revisionists you get 4,210