Holocaust deniers.

[handsome sugardaddy]

To come to Kathleen's defence on this accusation,I have been quoted erroneously in a previous post and not maliciously. Some of us are not as adept at how to use the quote function. Hopefully I have now figured it out.




The fact a man in his 80's mistates his length of time in confinement (or God help us is misquoted) but remembers the horrors in detail is not conclusive. As you get older you will understand the difference in cognitive functions.

Kathleen, I am thinking your issue is not so much the Nazi intent, practices, procedures or even numbers but rather why this particular event (as opposed to other genocides) is still in the forefront of our collective mindset. You seem to blame the Zionist conspiracy and influence i.e. Balfour Declaration, impact on US policy im the Middle East. No doubt they are well organised, well funded and have been persecuted in varying degrees throughout history with the understandable fear of a reoccurence.

However I think the continuing interest in this particular event is to a large extent because it was conducted by a major Western civilised industrially developed culturally rich nation's government. It is in other words too close to home. Focus on events in Africa, Bosnia, Russia etc are not of the same enormity within our (the West's) collective sensibility/shame.

I have to disagree with you on the point of interest claim. The great interest that exists of this particular event in history is a 'western' nation creation. Why is it that way?? I will answer what is my belief, and PLEASE nobody call me a anti-semite for my belief. The western media by far and large is controlled by people of the Jewish faith. In that sense, because of their control of the media, there is a information manipulation that exists.

Disclaimer.........I believe that there were concentration camps, I believe that many many people were killed without just cause there. I am not disclaiming the figure of 6 million Jewish deaths at the direct hands of the Nazi's, but I still do research and question information regarding these claims. If that makes me a anti-semite in your eyes, so be it.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

People have commented on the number of memorials to the Holocaust. Why is it so important to remember the 12 million or so people killed by the Nazis? The answer should be obvious after reading this thread. These memorials are needed to counter the views of the many who deny some aspect of the Holcaust, whether it is the numbers, the methods, the motivation, or if it happened, and more importantly, to fight against those who utilize anything they can to smear the Jews.

It is also important to remember all the deaths that were committed by the Allied forces. Death is death. By who committed it is as important as remembering the people who died.

 

[strange1]

... Here is my logic. If the German people knew of the going on's would also imply that the Jews also would have known. If they knew, that these were death camps, as opposed to labour camps, would you not as a person, flee for your life?? I am having trouble believing that they would simply wait for the Nazi's to come and get them from their homes...

From what I understand, mostly about the Warsaw Ghetto, even when it became reasonably known or believed that they were not being "relocated," a large number of the Jews, especialy the older and more religous ones held faith that god knew what he was doing and that they should trust him. Their lack of action was based on a religous view, not a logical one that we, at some distance, have the luxury of using.

The world remembers all its war dead, soldiers and victims on November 11th of each year. That should be enough of a reminder for everyone.

Nov. 11 is to remember all of those who died because of war, the focus is on soldiers. Although the Holcaust occured during the war, the events were not part of any military action, and therefore, is a different kettle of fish; it was a malicious campaign against groups of people who were considered not to belong in a pure Germany, and not considered acts of war.

 

[strange1]

It is also important to remember all the deaths that were committed by the Allied forces. Death is death. By who committed it is as important as remembering the people who died.

There is a massive difference, INTENT to kill those due to their religion or ethnicity, not a (horrible) way to affect the enemy's war effort.

All the deaths that have occured in war are bad. The deaths that have occured in civilian populations because of "total war" are terrible but an intentional campaign to wipe out groups of peoples is beyond disgusting.

 

[strange1]

... In that sense, because of their control of the media, there is a information manipulation that exists...

If you are a historian as you claim, you know, as even with my amateur historian status I know, that history is all about working in a situation where ALL information has bias, not just those from the "Jewish Controlled Media."

 

[strange1]

.., but I still do research and question information regarding these claims. If that makes me a anti-semite in your eyes, so be it.

I would ask you what is the motivation behind your research into the "claims" of the holocaust. If this was in the scientific field, you might answer "to find the truth" but as a historian, I am sure that you know that there is no such thing as HISTORICAL TRUTH, just interpretation. Is your interest based on a personal dislike of the accepted findings, a distrust of those who presented them, or for some other reason?

From my experience, the studies of the holocaust, being a recent event is probably closer to the theoretical truth, because in addition to archeological evidence, the research was done with the benefit of having access to eyewitnesses. As time passes, and the availability of witnesses decreases, the reliability of research decreases. Although a witness is not always reliable, the vast numbers of witnesses, agreeing on the major points, combined with massive physical evidence presents a strong historical case. A case in point is that the courts forced the IHR to pay out the bounty they promised for anyone who could prove that the gas chambers existed.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

From what I understand, mostly about the Warsaw Ghetto, even when it became reasonably known or believed that they were not being "relocated," a large number of the Jews, especialy the older and more religous ones held faith that god knew what he was doing and that they should trust him. Their lack of action was based on a religous view, not a logical one that we, at some distance, have the luxury of using.


Nov. 11 is to remember all of those who died because of war, the focus is on soldiers. Although the Holcaust occured during the war, the events were not part of any military action, and therefore, is a different kettle of fish; it was a malicious campaign against groups of people who were considered not to belong in a pure Germany, and not considered acts of war.

The deaths attributed to the Holocaust were a military action. Political in purpose carried out as military excerise.


Then I suggest that the world change the focus of Rememberance day to include all deaths related to a war campaign.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

If you are a historian as you claim, you know, as even with my amateur historian status I know, that history is all about working in a situation where ALL information has bias, not just those from the "Jewish Controlled Media."

Absoutely correct. Therefore we as intelligent beings should always take everything we read with a grain of salt. Wish I could remember the name of a professor I had in my first year of university, but his statement has always stuck in my head. First thing out of his mouth in the first class......."Always question what we interpret as historical facts"

 

[slowandeasy]

Actually Kathleen, Remebrance day came about to remember the events of WWI. It later became the day to remember all dead from all the wars.

Remebrance day should be the one day, and be a world wide 'holiday'. Not just a note on the calendar, but effectively a day the world should stop and reflect apon all the wars that mankind has created. There is no need to for a Holocaust day.

Wow... I think that we can actually all agree on this one point...... let's put it to a vote to see how many people think that we should have a Holocaust Day to remember victims of the Holocaust only....

 

[strange1]

The deaths attributed to the Holocaust were a military action. Political in purpose carried out as military excerise.

I would adamantly disagree as they were actions directed against internal "enemies", not an opposing nation. Just because it was carried out by men in uniform does not make it a military action. If the Canadian forces that Mel called in to clear snow ran over somebody, or if the soldiers helping battle the Red River floods dropped a sandbag on sombody, to consider them war deaths would be ridiculous; to apply a different standard to the Holocaust would be equally so.

 

[strange1]

Wow... I think that we can actually all agree on this one point...... let's put it to a vote to see how many people think that we should have a Holocaust Day to remember victims of the Holocaust only....

How many days do the Americans have to remember their own dead? What is so wrong with having more. I would have no problem if every day was a chance to remember the wrongs that have occured in the world, instead of trying to include everyone in one day and ignore them the rest of the time.

 

[lenharper]

Uhhh... don't want to risk being called a moron again but how was the Holocaust a military action in the accepted definition of the term?

It sure wasn't soldier against soldier, or Army against Army and I think it does stretch the definition if we consider the Jews taken to labour and later, extermination camps, to be POW's.

And if we concede that attacks on civilian populations like the bombing campaigns on London, Dresden and Hiroshima could be considered military actions (in that there was a military objective, demoralize the civilian population to such an extent that they ask their governments to surrender) how did the confinement and extermination of the Jews meet Germany's military objectives.

Or are you saying that the extermination of the Jew was a prime military objective for Hitler's Germany from the beginning of hostilities?

 

[pussygalore]

I have to disagree with you on the point of interest claim. The great interest that exists of this particular event in history is a 'western' nation creation. Why is it that way?? I will answer what is my belief, and PLEASE nobody call me a anti-semite for my belief. The western media by far and large is controlled by people of the Jewish faith. In that sense, because of their control of the media, there is a information manipulation that exists.

Disclaimer.........I believe that there were concentration camps, I believe that many many people were killed without just cause there. I am not disclaiming the figure of 6 million Jewish deaths at the direct hands of the Nazi's, but I still do research and question information regarding these claims. If that makes me a anti-semite in your eyes, so be it.

To be clear I have not called anyone in this thread an anti-semite. The right to do research and question information is be promoted. Of course this includes an analysis of the source of the information and their purpose whether it be the IHR and similar sites or the ADL/ Zionist/Jewish proponents.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

I would ask you what is the motivation behind your research into the "claims" of the holocaust. If this was in the scientific field, you might answer "to find the truth" but as a historian, I am sure that you know that there is no such thing as HISTORICAL TRUTH, just interpretation. Is your interest based on a personal dislike of the accepted findings, a distrust of those who presented them, or for some other reason?

From my experience, the studies of the holocaust, being a recent event is probably closer to the theoretical truth, because in addition to archeological evidence, the research was done with the benefit of having access to eyewitnesses. As time passes, and the availability of witnesses decreases, the reliability of research decreases. Although a witness is not always reliable, the vast numbers of witnesses, agreeing on the major points, combined with massive physical evidence presents a strong historical case. A case in point is that the courts forced the IHR to pay out the bounty they promised for anyone who could prove that the gas chambers existed.

My interest is mainly, because I am such a 'stickler' for facts. The problem I have with the 6 million figure is, how was this number gathered, and how accurate or reasonably accurate can it be? We have seen coutless photos of the camps, of the people being hoarded into trains, bringing them to the camps. We have seen photos of Nazi's shooting Jews in cold blood in the streets. The Nazi's were ruthless, and did not hide any of their atrocities. They openly admitted it. Why is there not one photo of a person being gassed?

Without any doubt in my mind, millions of Jews disappeared from Europe during the War. Death by illness, by being shot in cold blood, by disease created by inhumane conditions. Possibly gassed too.......there are records of virtually everything that occured during the War, but why were the Nazi's not keeping record of gassing?

These type of 'holes' in history intrigue me.

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

Uhhh... don't want to risk being called a moron again but how was the Holocaust a military action in the accepted definition of the term?

It sure wasn't soldier against soldier, or Army against Army and I think it does stretch the definition if we consider the Jews taken to labour and later, extermination camps, to be POW's.

And if we concede that attacks on civilian populations like the bombing campaigns on London, Dresden and Hiroshima could be considered military actions (in that there was a military objective, demoralize the civilian population to such an extent that they ask their governments to surrender) how did the confinement and extermination of the Jews meet Germany's military objectives.

Or are you saying that the extermination of the Jew was a prime military objective for Hitler's Germany from the beginning of hostilities?

No, what I am saying is that it was a political action carried out by the military.

 

[slowandeasy]

How many days do the Americans have to remember their own dead? What is so wrong with having more. I would have no problem if every day was a chance to remember the wrongs that have occured in the world, instead of trying to include everyone in one day and ignore them the rest of the time.

I guess that we cannot agree on this after all. I don't know how many days the Americans have to remember their own dead, what is that number???

Perhaps you misunderstand, or perhaps I misunderstand... I am not saying that Israel should not create their own Holocaust day if that is their desire...
I had always thought that Rememberance Day was for remembering all those who died in the war... that includes Americans, Canadians, Brits, Poles, Jews and Germans... But I believed that the article indicated that they wanted the UN to recognize the holiday... I took that to mean that they are expecting the rest of the world to follow along...

Closer to home here in North America, we should be having a "First Nations" day or something like that to honor the lives of their people... (or do we have one that I don't know about?)....

 

[pussygalore]

My interest is mainly, because I am such a 'stickler' for facts. The problem I have with the 6 million figure is, how was this number gathered, and how accurate or reasonably accurate can it be? We have seen coutless photos of the camps, of the people being hoarded into trains, bringing them to the camps. We have seen photos of Nazi's shooting Jews in cold blood in the streets. The Nazi's were ruthless, and did not hide any of their atrocities. They openly admitted it. Why is there not one photo of a person being gassed?

Without any doubt in my mind, millions of Jews disappeared from Europe during the War. Death by illness, by being shot in cold blood, by disease created by inhumane conditions. Possibly gassed too.......there are records of virtually everything that occured during the War, but why were the Nazi's not keeping record of gassing?

These type of 'holes' in history intrigue me.

Perhaps the photographer did not want to go inside the shower.
Why did Himmler order the destruction of the shower and crematorium area at Auschwitz for instance but left the rest of the camp intact?

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

I would adamantly disagree as they were actions directed against internal "enemies", not an opposing nation. Just because it was carried out by men in uniform does not make it a military action. If the Canadian forces that Mel called in to clear snow ran over somebody, or if the soldiers helping battle the Red River floods dropped a sandbag on sombody, to consider them war deaths would be ridiculous; to apply a different standard to the Holocaust would be equally so.

I disagree, because the soldiers and the prison guards did what they did as a direct result of a order given to them by their superior officers, then it does become a military action. The military was directed, by Nazi policy, which was a political party. Thus I conclude, a military action taken on the premise of a political ideaology.

 

[strange1]

With the number of nations in the UN that are Arab, Moslem, anti-Israel, or don't want to remember the Holocaust, I would find it extremly unlikely that it would pass. Even if it did, I would have a hard time seeing many countries participating. To me it seems only a move to serve as a reminder.

Also
"June 21st is National Aboriginal Day

National Aboriginal Day June 21 is National Aboriginal Day, a day for Canadians to celebrate the cultures of Canada's First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples. There will be celebrations and pow-wows across the country, ranging from sunrise ceremonies to golf tournaments." from http://www.aboriginal.ca/portal/

 

[handsome sugardaddy]

How many days do the Americans have to remember their own dead? What is so wrong with having more. I would have no problem if every day was a chance to remember the wrongs that have occured in the world, instead of trying to include everyone in one day and ignore them the rest of the time.

There is not enough days in a year to create a memorial day for each atrocity that has occured in mankind.