Prisoner exchange

[basketcase]

If I recall correctly, according to Benny Morris' book Righteous Victims, Israelis also expelled Arabs from villages during the 1948 war, so you can't blame the Arabs only.
...

Morris is an interesting read.

For example, he documents how Jewish territorial expansion has come as a direct result of attacks by Arab militants. Arab attacks on Jewish settlements at the start of the civil war caused Jewish forces to clear the villages where the attacks were launched from resulting in Jews holding more land than the partition. The invasion of Arab armies similarly forced the newly formed IDF to further consolidate around defensible lines which resulted in many Arab villages ending up inside Israel (also applies to '67, Lebanon and more recently Gaza).

His conclusion on refugees is that in very isolated cases, (and as fuji admitted) residents were forced out by Israel forces. Others left at the express direction of Arab leadership but most left out of fear spread both by the Arab leadership and Jewish hardliners. Morris also discusses how around 100,000 went back to their homes after the fighting.

I would recommend reading his works in their entirety (and not just cherry pick facts). The fact that he is liked and hated by both sides makes me think he might be close to the mark.

 

[basketcase]

I thought they were formed during the war of independence in 1948...

Technically not until the Brits left.

There were many somewhat organized groups such as the Haganah that formed the basis of the IDF hierarchy that did exist in advance.

 

[groggy]

Specifically the policy was that villages would be cleared only if they actively resisted and fought with Israeli troops. Villages that did not resist, that were peaceful, were not cleared.

Another example of your hypocritism.
You grant Israel the right to self-defence but then defend Irgun terrorists for ethnic cleansing by saying they were only ethnically cleansed if they defended themselves.
Its just yet another rationalization for ethnic cleansing, its wrong if they defend themselves or not.
Really, its time the 4 million or so Palestinians were relieved from their statelessness and brought back into Israel (I'd say and Palestine if there was even a remote hope that such a country will exist in the near future).

 

[fuji]

I thought they were formed during the war of independence in 1948...

Yeah, but the events that I think you were referring to, like Deir Yassin, occurred before that, during the civil war in the Mandate of Palestine. At that time there was no IDF, but rather a variety of different militia groups. IDF formed by merging Haganah/Palmach with other smaller militias and then later on integrated many former Irgun fighters after forcibly disarming Irgun at gunpoint.

IDF formed on 24 May 1948, ten days after the Israeli declaration of independence, and also obviously ten days after the Arab invasion of Israel.

 

[fuji]

You grant Israel the right to self-defence but then defend Irgun terrorists for ethnic cleansing by saying they were only ethnically cleansed if they defended themselves.

s/defended themselves/attacked Israeli forces/

Saying they "defended themselves" makes it sound like they were under attack, which they were not.

 

[fuji]

That's an odd accusation considering when you realized you had lost your point to me when I revealed that Israeli state archives disprove your myth, you did not address it but tried to switch the argument.
Get up to speed with the scholarship, Ernst Zundel/Fuji.

I provided you with actual quotes. You've provided bullshit. See?

 

[gryfin]

I provided you with actual quotes. You've provided bullshit. See?

So, Ernst Zundel/Fuji, are you saying there are no such records in th Israeli archives?

Your answer to this will be a good indication to everyone as to how well informed are you.

 

[groggy]

s/defended themselves/attacked Israeli forces/

Saying they "defended themselves" makes it sound like they were under attack, which they were not.

Are you suggesting that Irgun was out handing out flowers?
Really, sometimes your arguments are just so pathetic.

Palestinians who tried to defend themselves against violent takeover of their villages were ethnically cleansed, as you have admitted above.
And then you try to blame those same Palestinians for being ethnically cleansed by saying they defended themselves.
You have no morals.


And when farmers are killed by Israel, its the same thing.
2 farmers get shot, and I'm sure you are going to argue they were to close to Gaza, which is filled with all sorts of unhappy people turned militant against an illegal occupation and blockade.

 

[fuji]

So, Ernst Zundel/Fuji, are you saying there are no such records in th Israeli archives?

Your answer to this will be a good indication to everyone as to how well informed are you.

I am saying I have provided you with actual quotes from Arab leaders stating that they had told Arabs to leave Israeli territory. I'm sorry if your hate isn't compatible with the facts.

 

[fuji]

Are you suggesting that Irgun was out handing out flowers?

We were talking about Haganah you twit. Haganah only cleared Arab villages that attacked Haganah. Palestinians that remained peaceful were treated peacefully and remain in Israel to this day.

 

[groggy]

We were talking about Haganah you twit. Haganah only cleared Arab villages that attacked Haganah. Palestinians that remained peaceful were treated peacefully and remain in Israel to this day.

No, you were, me, I was talking Irgun.
Nice try.

 

[groggy]

I am saying I have provided you with actual quotes from Arab leaders stating that they had told Arabs to leave Israeli territory. I'm sorry if your hate isn't compatible with the facts.

And of course its only because those Arab leaders said flee Jewish terrorists that they left, so its all the fault of those Arabs, not the Jewish terrorists.
This twist of logic is so pathetically lame, I'm surprised you can still push it.
Really, Arab leaders would not have suggested anyone flee if they didn't think that Palestinians would be killed by Jewish terrorists.
It was a warning about Jewish terrorists.

You don't blame the air raid siren for making people go to the basements, you blame the people flying the planes and dropping the bombs.
Get it?

 

[fuji]

No, you were, me, I was talking Irgun.
Nice try.

No, you weren't. You were talking about Arab villages being cleared, or not, and that means you were talking about Haganah. Irgun was not really involved in that, except for a couple of isolated cases. You don't get to rewrite history.

Here is the quote you were ultimately responding to:

fuji: "Specifically the policy was that villages would be cleared only if they actively resisted and fought with Israeli troops. Villages that did not resist, that were peaceful, were not cleared."

That was a Haganah policy, twit. Irgun was remarkably insignificant with respect to clearing villages--it had very few people, and was active in very few situations. In the few situations where it did clear villages it was almost universally militarily opposed by Haganah, and deplored by mainstream Jewish leaders.

Since it was Haganah that went on to form IDF, and vehemently not Irgun--IDF disarmed Irgun at gunpoint--you cannot use Irgun against Israel.

 

[gryfin]

In the few situations where it did clear villages it was almost universally militarily opposed by Haganah, and deplored by mainstream Jewish leaders.

You seem to forget Dier Yassin, which the Haganah participated in with the Irgun and in which the Haganah actually shot Palestinians fleeing the massacre. Hence, they are part of the massacre.

 

[gryfin]

I am saying I have provided you with actual quotes from Arab leaders stating that they had told Arabs to leave Israeli territory. I'm sorry if your hate isn't compatible with the facts.

Ah, so we can see now that you are skipping around the question of whether Israeli archives prove that the so called call to flee by Arab leaders was a myth. You must know by now that I don't ask a question without knowing the answer - and that explains the tap dance that you are currently performing, Ernst Zundel/Fuji.

Here's another question for you. How did these Arab leaders communicate this mass call to flee? Was it by radio? Was it in print?

 

[groggy]

Ah, so we can see now that you are skipping around the question of whether Israeli archives prove that the so called call to flee by Arab leaders was a myth. You must know by now that I don't ask a question without knowing the answer - and that explains the tap dance that you are currently performing, Ernst Zundel/Fuji.

Here's another question for you. How did these Arab leaders communicate this mass call to flee? Was it by radio? Was it in print?

Back to blaming the air raid siren for everyone hiding in the basement.
Its really quite a lame argument.

There would have been no call by any Arab leaders if people weren't being killed by Jewish terrorists.
It was Jewish terrorists who perpetrated the crimes that caused people to flee, it was not the messengers.

 

[fuji]

You seem to forget Dier Yassin, which the Haganah participated in with the Irgun and in which the Haganah actually shot Palestinians fleeing the massacre. Hence, they are part of the massacre.

You've been shown before that your claim about this is wrong, do you want to be humiliated on this topic again?

 

[fuji]

Ah, so we can see now that you are skipping around the question of whether Israeli archives prove that the so called call to flee by Arab leaders was a myth.

Except, moron, that I've already provided you with definitive quotes from Arab leaders saying that they did call for Arabs to flee, so no, nothing in the archives would prove otherwise, because we already have definitive proof that the Arabs did so, in the form of clear statements from the Arab leaders themselves.

 

[diehard]

Yeah, but the events that I think you were referring to, like Deir Yassin, occurred before that, during the civil war in the Mandate of Palestine. At that time there was no IDF, but rather a variety of different militia groups.

Here's a list of massacres committed by Arabs and Israelis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War#Scale

According to Benny Morris, atrocities were committed by the IDF, though most happened before it was formed, as you mentioned.

 

[fuji]

Diehard, according to your link about 800 people were killed under suspicious/unacceptable circumstances. Of course that's not good, but it seems to me given the scale of that war (i.e., 115000 IDF troops) and the number of people involved that it's reasonable to attribute that to rogue commanders violating central policy, and also seems comparable to, say, war crimes carried out by rogue allied commanders in WW2, in violation of central allied commanders.

Moreover in your link several of those cases were in places where there was active resistance, with locals fighting Israeli forces. In that case the line between a combatant and a civilian becomes blurry, especially for a soldier on the ground who has just been shot at.

I don't think those numbers support the claim that Israel was following some policy of ethnic cleansing, and I think the relatively small number of cases in your link is consistent with the claim that peaceful Arab villages were, in general, left in peace by IDF and by Haganah before that.

The links you've given don't break it down, but I would also suspect that Irgun was responsible for much of that, and as I've noted a few times that policy was opposed by Haganah and by IDF and eventually IDF disarmed Irgun at gunpoint.