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Big Papa Smurf

aka:The Original Dr. Funk
Remember even Larry Bird had Robert Parish and freaks of nature like Kevin McHale backing him. Most of the greatest players in the NBA are either long/tall and/or very athletic.
Oh please! You're grasping at straws again. You shouldn't comment on players you really haven't seen play. Robert Parish is not an athletic freak. He had good agility for a big man, but he was slow, and possessed a poor vertical He didn't even make 1 all-defensive team in his entire career nor was he an intimidating shot blocker.

Kevin McHale did have long arms, but he was slow; had poor lateral movement, and couldn't jump. He wasn't even a premier shot blocker.What made McHale a great defensive player was his post defense. He was physical, and pushed guys away from their favourite spots on the floor. He guarded the best scoring forward on the other team because Bird was a lousy one-on-one defender.
Trust me.....genetics helps.....Even Iverson who the novices may think isn't tall has arms like a Gorilla which allows him to play with speed of a 6' guard but length of that much taller
Really now? Iverson is not a ball-hawk on defense. He gets most of his steals by playing the passing lanes. So arm strength has nothing to do with it.

Maybe Iverson is a great off-the-ball defender because he has quick hands, can telegraph were the ball is going to go, and understands how to play the passing lanes. But he is also a huge gambler on the defensive end.

Allen Iverson has the same off-the-ball instincts as Larry Bird. Bird was alway top 15 in the league in steals despite him being slow, not having length , and not having the lateral quickness, or what you contend arm strength. The same can be said for John Stockton. Those guys made countless all nba defensive teams. Last time I checked Iverson hasn't made any.

I'm not sure where you guys see error in this but all the best to you in the real world.
The error is that you stated that "athleticism = a good defensive player". Some of us contend that the #1 factor is actually understanding how to play your opponent on the defensive end. I've given you plenty of examples to contest your claim. You took sarcastic shots at my basketball I.Q. Yet you haven't even provided a shread of evidence to dispell my claim, nor have you answered any of my questions. All you've done is rely on your so-called basketball I.Q. without backing it up with any facts.

The greatest defensive player, Bill Russell, was a genetic freak. He had speed, quickness, length, and possessed a phenomenal vertical. However, he was also the most intelligent player to ever play this game. That is why he is the only player in the history of the game that could guard all 5 positions on the court. That is what made him so great. Having physical skills is a tremendous asset, but if you don't know how to play your opponent, then those skills are useless (ie: Dominique Wilkins, Vince Carter, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles...etc)

Here are some examples of Russell's defensive I.Q:

(1) He always tried to take a charge even though he knew that he could block the shot because a charge guarantees you possession of the ball and it gives the opposing player a foul.

(2) He didn't intimidate players from going to the basket. He invited them, then he came from behind to block their shots which ignited the Celtic's fastbreak.

(3) He only attempted to block shots when the ball was just barely out of the opponents hands, because he knew that if he had to jump high to block a shot, he would be out of position for the defensive rebound.

(4) He couldn't handle Wilt Chamberlain one-on-one, so he made Chamberlain work on offense and continuously made him run up-and-down the court. That resulted in Chamberlain being fatigued during crunch time, and that's is where Russell's teams took advantage.
 

Kwazy

Banned
Apr 22, 2004
568
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Now I see...

Big Papa Smurf said:
Oh please! You're grasping at straws again. You shouldn't comment on players you really haven't seen play. Robert Parish is not an athletic freak.

is there anyone here educated in Canada????..........Robert Parish was a big man and long arms.........Kevin McHale a Genetic freak, with long ape like arms too......I thought that speaking in English would help.....really let me know what language you are more comfortable with and I'll translate.


....and then you agree with me about length and athletism when you mention Bill Russell.....I don't get it.

You guys all keep quoting long/tall guys, athetic players with hops as the greatest defenders yet you'd rather have slow, short guys....I don't get it????


and please there is no need to try to come up with the odd exception either. I would hate to see you kids sitting at a blackjack table scratching your heads wondering whether you should hit your fifteens and sixteens against a dealer face card...

....I can just picture you poor lost souls thinking about all the times you may have seen someone standing on those 15s and 16s and it worked?????..."it must work all the time...no...."??? NO! YOU WILL LOSE ALL YOUR MONEY BY DOING THIS OVER THE LONG RUN!!!

I'm sorry boys......statistically always draw a card.

and in basketball always choose a team of long athletic players instead of slow short fat guys!!!!!

I'm not sure how else to put it for you children .:D
 

Big Papa Smurf

aka:The Original Dr. Funk
is there anyone here educated in Canada????..........Robert Parish was a big man and long arms.........Kevin McHale a Genetic freak, with long ape like arms too......I thought that speaking in English would help.....really let me know what language you are more comfortable with and I'll translate.
Parish was 7'0", but did not have a wingspan of a condor. He was also slow. Even we follow your analysis (which I disagree with)then why didn't Parish make any of the all-defensive teams?.

I agreed that McHale had long arms,but he was also slow, and not an athletic freak. Joe Barry Carroll had a long wingspan also, but he never made any of the all-defensive teams either.

....and then you agree with me about length and athletism when you mention Bill Russell.....I don't get it.
It nice to know that you read one part of my analysis of Bill Russell, but forgot to read the most important part. Here it is if you forgot to read the bold part.

The greatest defensive player, Bill Russell, was a genetic freak. He had speed, quickness, length, and possessed a phenomenal vertical. However, he was also the most intelligent player to ever play this game. That is why he is the only player in the history of the game that could guard all 5 positions on the court. That is what made him so great. Having physical skills is a tremendous asset, but if you don't know how to play your opponent, then those skills are useless (ie: Dominique Wilkins, Vince Carter, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles...etc)


You guys all keep quoting long/tall guys, athetic players with hops as the greatest defenders yet you'd rather have slow, short guys....I don't get it????

and please there is no need to try to come up with the odd exception either. I would hate to see you kids sitting at a blackjack table scratching your heads wondering whether you should hit your fifteens and sixteens against a dealer face card...
For someone who tells us that we can't read, you sure know how to ignore facts and evidence against your agrument. Here is the list I posted earlier, and I'll put it in bold for you.

Rick Mahorn, Paul Pressey, Charles Oakley, Don Buse, Maurice Lucas, Paul Silas, Quinn Buckner, M.L Carr, Eddie Johnson, Scott Wedman, Dennis Johnson (latter years), Kevin McHale, Bill Walton, Joe Dumars, John Stockton, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phils, Eric Snow, Dave Debusschere
All these unathletic, short armed guys made the all-defensive teams. If you don't believe me then do the reasearch yourself.

NBA all defensive teams

....I can just picture you poor lost souls thinking about all the times you may have seen someone standing on those 15s and 16s and it worked?????..."it must work all the time...no...."??? NO! YOU WILL LOSE ALL YOUR MONEY BY DOING THIS OVER THE LONG RUN!!!

I'm sorry boys......statistically always draw a card.

and in basketball always choose a team of long athletic players instead of slow short fat guys!!!!!
Ah, Yes. Your constant dodging of facts and evidence with some smart alek remark questioning our knowledge of basketball. Yet you can't come up with any facts to backup your argument.:rolleyes:

Why can't you just answer the four simlple questions that I asked? Is it too difficult for you to come up with an answer?

I'll ask it again, but I realize that you'll find another way to backpedal out of it.

(1)Why is it Vince Carter, Darius Miles and Stromile Swift can't crack the all-defensive teams even though they are probably the most athletically gifted players in this league?

(2)Why is it that athletic phenoms like Julius Erving, Connie Hawkins, David Thompson, and Dominique Wilkins couldn't crack any of the all-defensive teams during their careers, but unathletic players like Rick Mahorn, Larry Bird, Don Buse, and Paul Pressey can?

(3) How is it that the Celtics of the 80's, which was the most unathletic team in the league, be in the top 5 in FG% defense, and points allowed for 5 consecutive years?

(4) Name me one player in the history of the NBA that made the all-defensive teams just on shear athleticism without the knowledge of how to play defense?
 

Kwazy

Banned
Apr 22, 2004
568
0
0
Just one thing......

Big Papa Smurf said:
Parish was 7'0", but did not have a wingspan of a condor. He was also slow. Even we follow your analysis (which I disagree with)then why didn't Parish make any of the all-defensive teams?.

I agreed that McHale had long arms,but he was also slow, and not an athletic freak. Joe Barry Carroll had a long wingspan also, but he never made any of the all-defensive teams either.


It nice to know that you read one part of my analysis of Bill Russell, but forgot to read the most important part. Here it is if you forgot to read the bold part.






For someone who tells us that we can't read, you sure know how to ignore facts and evidence against your agrument. Here is the list I posted earlier, and I'll put it in bold for you.



All these unathletic, short armed guys made the all-defensive teams. If you don't believe me then do the reasearch yourself.

NBA all defensive teams


Ah, Yes. Your constant dodging of facts and evidence with some smart alek remark questioning our knowledge of basketball. Yet you can't come up with any facts to backup your argument.:rolleyes:

Why can't you just answer the four simlple questions that I asked? Is it too difficult for you to come up with an answer?

I'll ask it again, but I realize that you'll find another way to backpedal out of it.

(1)Why is it Vince Carter, Darius Miles and Stromile Swift can't crack the all-defensive teams even though they are probably the most athletically gifted players in this league?

(2)Why is it that athletic phenoms like Julius Erving, Connie Hawkins, David Thompson, and Dominique Wilkins couldn't crack any of the all-defensive teams during their careers, but unathletic players like Rick Mahorn, Larry Bird, Don Buse, and Paul Pressey can?

(3) How is it that the Celtics of the 80's, which was the most unathletic team in the league, be in the top 5 in FG% defense, and points allowed for 5 consecutive years?

(4) Name me one player in the history of the NBA that made the all-defensive teams just on shear athleticism without the knowledge of how to play defense?


stay away from the blackjack table.......you my poor friend ....will lose....and lose a lot......more than you lose in your normal life.

Start your own team and pick only short, slow, unathletic players and enter them into the NBA....ROFLOL.

If it was always so obvious then why did Michael Jordan not get picked #1 coming out of College???....why are there always so many erroneous picks in every sport????..because its not always obvious BUT if you continue to pick tall, long, quick athletic players your team will have a far better chance in the long run.

You are the stock market guy who keeps thinking he can make the right picks...and always looking in the rear view mirror thinking....I SHOULDA ...I SHOULDA...

Stick to my few basic rules and you will be fine.....TRUST ME.

Look....so far you've gone nowhere in your life by trusting your own erroneus judgement......I'm asking you to start listening to what has worked for successfull people like myself.

Even if you're embarrassed to ask me for further help then at least look to other successfull people and ask them....ask them to help you....you need it.
 

frankcastle

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2003
17,870
242
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Maybe I'm reading this wrong but isn't the guy just trying to point out that there's more to a good bball player than just size and athleticism?

No I don't think he's suggesting that you should purposely pick slow and unathletic guys but that there are other criteria to consider.

The person who misses that point is the one with the problem.
 

Big Papa Smurf

aka:The Original Dr. Funk
Kwazy,
You are truly pathetic. You still haven't answered any of my questions. Are they too tough for you?

I'll entertain you because I get a kick out of making so-called basketball experts ,who like to belittle other peoples opinions, look foolish.

If it was always so obvious then why did Michael Jordan not get picked #1 coming out of College???.....
Considering that Hakeem Olajuwon was drafted 1st overall in '84 (ahead of Jordan), and that the Rockets made the finals in '86, and Olajuwon brought them back-to-back titles in 94 & 95, I think that the Rockets made a good choice. BTW, that Rockets team lost to a bunch of unathletic white guys with Larry Bird being named MVP, you know.

I know that you are going to respond with the typical "Jordan was a better player" crap, but its all hindsight. Every draft expert in that era knew that Olajuwon was the consensus #1. So don't even try that BS with me.

why are there always so many erroneous picks in every sport????..because its not always obvious BUT if you continue to pick tall, long, quick athletic players your team will have a far better chance in the long run
Right!:rolleyes: I'm sure that Memphis, Washington, Chicago, and the Clips are happy with the fact that they selected athletic freaks like Stromile Swift, Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, and Darius Miles ahead of some other notable players.

I'm sure that Dallas was happy selecting long-armed Sam Perkins over a 6'4", short-armed Charles Barkley.

I'm sure that Indiana was content in drafting long-armed Rick Robey over an unathletic Larry Bird.

I'm sure that Philly was happy with trading the #1 pick in '86 instead of drafting a short-armed, non-athletic Brad Daugherty.

I'm sure that the Clips were happy with selecting a long-armed Benoit Benjamin over Karl Malone.

I'm sure that Sacramento was happy in selecting a long-armed athlete in Pervis Ellison over Glen Rice.

Do I need to go on further with more examples?

Drafting is a difficult process with alot of factors invovled. Athelticism is not the only factor involved with selecting a player. Good GM's know this.

Look....so far you've gone nowhere in your life by trusting your own erroneus judgement......I'm asking you to start listening to what has worked for successfull people like myself.

Even if you're embarrassed to ask me for further help then at least look to other successfull people and ask them....ask them to help you....you need it.
Ah yes! The smart alek retort that I expected from you. Maybe you should get a sex change to get the balls to answer my simple questions. The only reason you are resorting to flaming me is because you really don't know anything.

***I apologize to the others for taking this thread off-topic. I will refrain from posting again because I'm debating with someone with the maturity of a 10yr old.***
 

benn

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Jan 18, 2005
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Big Papa Smurf said:
Kwazy,
You are truly pathetic. You still haven't answered any of my questions. Are they too tough for you?

I'll entertain you because I get a kick out of making so-called basketball experts ,who like to belittle other peoples opinions, look foolish.



Considering that Hakeem Olajuwon was drafted 1st overall in '84 (ahead of Jordan), and that the Rockets made the finals in '86, and Olajuwon brought them back-to-back titles in 94 & 95, I think that the Rockets made a good choice. BTW, that Rockets team lost to a bunch of unathletic white guys with Larry Bird being named MVP, you know.

I know that you are going to respond with the typical "Jordan was a better player" crap, but its all hindsight. Every draft expert in that era knew that Olajuwon was the consensus #1. So don't even try that BS with me.


Right!:rolleyes: I'm sure that Memphis, Washington, Chicago, and the Clips are happy with the fact that they selected athletic freaks like Stromile Swift, Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, and Darius Miles ahead of some other notable players.

I'm sure that Dallas was happy selecting long-armed Sam Perkins over a 6'4", short-armed Charles Barkley.

I'm sure that Indiana was content in drafting long-armed Rick Robey over an unathletic Larry Bird.

I'm sure that Philly was happy with trading the #1 pick in '86 instead of drafting a short-armed, non-athletic Brad Daugherty.

I'm sure that the Clips were happy with selecting a long-armed Benoit Benjamin over Karl Malone.

I'm sure that Sacramento was happy in selecting a long-armed athlete in Pervis Ellison over Glen Rice.

Do I need to go on further with more examples?

Drafting is a difficult process with alot of factors invovled. Athelticism is not the only factor involved with selecting a player. Good GM's know this.


Ah yes! The smart alek retort that I expected from you. Maybe you should get a sex change to get the balls to answer my simple questions. The only reason you are resorting to flaming me is because you really don't know anything.

***I apologize to the others for taking this thread off-topic. I will refrain from posting again because I'm debating with someone with the maturity of a 10yr old.***
you forgot Portland drafting Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan

and another issue, I stop responding to Kwazy cuz I really can't sink to his level cuz he is a total dumbass that doesn't really know basketball, he probably started watching when Toronto got an NBA team
 

Kwazy

Banned
Apr 22, 2004
568
0
0
LET'S try and keep this simple and easy for you...

Big Papa Smurf said:
Kwazy,
You are truly pathetic. You still haven't answered any of my questions. Are they too tough for you?

I'll entertain you because I get a kick out of making so-called basketball experts ,..................

................

.............BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH............***[/b]

I'm not sure how many players you've quoted in your posts so far but lets say you've got enough of a vocabulary to have properly spelled 20 names so far in this whole thread....AND YOU'VE picked guys who've supposedly been all defensive players....

AND YOU'VE GONE BACK at times 40-50 years....

well you've successfully(IN HINDSIGHT MAY I ADD) come up with some 'WINNERS' in your opinion.

Now there are what???......over 500 active players today??? and let's say a new crop of 300 players every 7 years????...going back 40 years....So with all your wisdom you've come up with only 20 out 5 THOUSAND PLAYERS TO PLAY IN THE NBA....(i still don't see why you don't think that Robert Parish was long and/or athletic.....even though you quote him as a 7footer...seems kind of long to me, but i'm only 6feet tall so they are all tall to me.....LOL)

once again....in hindsight you supposedLY came up with 20 exceptions...(I'll give you 20 but maybe there's only 5-6 in the bunch!!!...many were either long or very athletic)


and you've accomplished what?????

You are a statistical MORON!!!!!

Please watch the Detroit Raptors game and look at every match up on the floor.......even take note of what Joe Dumars did with Corliss Williamson.....(try McDyess???)....Even Joe Dumars believes me.

But you my feeble minded Smurfette.....

Do you still feel you should go short and slow with your team?????

Simply stick with the numbers...they don't lie......

Ask all your ex-girlfriends why they left you!....same answer ....SHORT AND SMALL IS NO GOOD!!!!!
 

Kwazy

Banned
Apr 22, 2004
568
0
0
By the way...

Big Papa Smurf said:
Oh please! You're grasping at straws again. You shouldn't comment on players you really haven't seen play. Robert Parish is not an athletic freak. He had good agility for a big man, but he was slow, and possessed a poor vertical He didn't even make 1 all-defensive team in his entire career nor was he an intimidating shot blocker.

Kevin McHale did have long arms, but he was slow; had poor lateral movement, and couldn't jump. He wasn't even a premier shot blocker.What made McHale a great defensive player was his post defense. He was physical, and pushed guys away from their favourite spots on the floor. He guarded the best scoring forward on the other team because Bird was a lousy one-on-one defender.


Really now? Iverson is not a ball-hawk on defense. He gets most of his steals by playing the passing lanes. So arm strength has nothing to do with it.

Maybe Iverson is a great off-the-ball defender because he has quick hands, can telegraph were the ball is going to go, and understands how to play the passing lanes. But he is also a huge gambler on the defensive end.

Allen Iverson has the same off-the-ball instincts as Larry Bird. Bird was alway top 15 in the league in steals despite him being slow, not having length , and not having the lateral quickness, or what you contend arm strength. The same can be said for John Stockton. Those guys made countless all nba defensive teams. Last time I checked Iverson hasn't made any.


The error is that you stated that "athleticism = a good defensive player". Some of us contend that the #1 factor is actually understanding how to play your opponent on the defensive end. I've given you plenty of examples to contest your claim. You took sarcastic shots at my basketball I.Q. Yet you haven't even provided a shread of evidence to dispell my claim, nor have you answered any of my questions. All you've done is rely on your so-called basketball I.Q. without backing it up with any facts.

The greatest defensive player, Bill Russell, was a genetic freak. He had speed, quickness, length, and possessed a phenomenal vertical. However, he was also the most intelligent player to ever play this game. That is why he is the only player in the history of the game that could guard all 5 positions on the court. That is what made him so great. Having physical skills is a tremendous asset, but if you don't know how to play your opponent, then those skills are useless (ie: Dominique Wilkins, Vince Carter, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles...etc)

Here are some examples of Russell's defensive I.Q:

(1) He always tried to take a charge even though he knew that he could block the shot because a charge guarantees you possession of the ball and it gives the opposing player a foul.

(2) He didn't intimidate players from going to the basket. He invited them, then he came from behind to block their shots which ignited the Celtic's fastbreak.

(3) He only attempted to block shots when the ball was just barely out of the opponents hands, because he knew that if he had to jump high to block a shot, he would be out of position for the defensive rebound.

(4) He couldn't handle Wilt Chamberlain one-on-one, so he made Chamberlain work on offense and continuously made him run up-and-down the court. That resulted in Chamberlain being fatigued during crunch time, and that's is where Russell's teams took advantage.

I love when someone has to say/write everything they know in order to try to convince others that they are intelligent.....it so often ends up in a contradiction like talking in perpetuity of a how a player like

BILL RUSSELL

WHO IS LONG AND ATHLETIC

IS A GREAT DEFENDER.!!!!!!


and lastly you don't have to be on the "all defensive team" to help your team be better defensively.

Just the fact that you have 2 long players like Parish and Mchale means you deter players from attacking the lane, shots get altered, if not blocked and hinder low post pivot players!!!
 

PHNINE

Banned
Aug 27, 2005
5,462
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Penthouse
Yay, finally the Raps get a win. The game was good, glad to see Mopete step it up, and Calderone was was solid. Jalen where are you?

Raptors 108 Hawks 102
 

benn

Member
Jan 18, 2005
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PHNINE said:
Yay, finally the Raps get a win. The game was good, glad to see Mopete step it up, and Calderone was was solid. Jalen where are you?

Raptors 108 Hawks 102
Jalen was solid, he made the play that turned the game around
 
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Rising Sun

Member
Jan 18, 2004
256
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Does anyone know when Jalen's contract expires? Is it the end of this year or next?

Who else has a headache reading this thread?

My 2 baht;
Wasn't Joey Graham rated the best "athlete" of last year's draft?
Wasn't he drafted 16th?
He has arms that are tres long.
14 teams (Toronto drafted twice) passed on the best "athlete".
Joey has shown flashes of skill but that's it. I know he's a rookie and we should save judgement for a couple years but I think it would be interesting to know who the highest rated "athlete" was in that draft and see where they are now.

The Raps beat the Hawks tonight.
I be happy.
I hate Vince.
 

PHNINE

Banned
Aug 27, 2005
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Great game tonight. We actually looked like a team. Good come back in the 4th. Mike James is really starting to look like a leader out there. Great defence at the end of the end of the game. Raptors win...

Raptors 99 Pacers 97
 

Meister

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2003
4,309
533
113
Raptor defending was horrible in the beginning. The Pacers didn't play very well which allowed the Raptors to come back. With a little better defending the Raps could have won much higher.
Kudos to James and CV.
 
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