Teachers Taking "Sick Days" - Anyone want to defend this one?

[t.o.leafs.fan]

I'll be taking a 1.5% pay cut next year, along with some big hits to my benefits. As will more than half of my colleagues. So if you ask me, as a teacher, am I taking a 1.5% cut next year, the only honest answer I can give you is yes. I'm not trying to speak lawyer speak. It's a complicated situation but one that means my salary gets cut.

The teacher's getting a small increase are actually the ones who are the worst off.

If you knew all of the details of the contract, my situation (taking a 1.5% cut with cuts to my benefits and not a single gain in the contract) is far superior to those getting slight increases. They're getting hit really hard. The cuts to benefits go deepest to the newbies.

DUDE,...you should be a lawyer, and I'm not meaning that as an insult.

You keep referring to grid increases,...I don't care what the old contract pay scale was,...in other words,...what could have been, should have been, whished had been,... had the "freeze" not been applied.
We are talking about whether or not a specific teachers salary will actually be lower in a succeeding year.

I am not going to do the research on what happened to the pay scale at the “top of the grid”,…so I’ll have to take your word for the fact that, there was a reduction at the very top of the grid, AND NOT a reduction in the “increase“, or simply no increase, NOT the same.

Although I still find it a little hard to believe, but possible, that when a teacher moves to the “top of the grid” in the next 2 years, his/her salary will be less than it was before he/she was moved to it.

( you could do a lot for the teachers side if you showed actual verifiable numbers)

But,…as you have already admitted,...a LOT of teachers will in fact get an increase,...so the statement that “teachers have taken a 1.5% pay cut“,... is not true.

FAST

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

People say teachers are whiners over the whole situation but I don't think people realize the full extent of the issue. Most (except cops and maybe firefighters) in the public sectors are taking pay freezes. However, on top of a pay freeze, the province is pulling 2 billion in education funding, all of which is coming from slashes to teacher benefits and nothing from programming.

Dr's took a pay freeze but that's all they took. No real hits to their benefits. More than 100 mill. new dollars pumped into the system. Professors took a freeze, but again just a freeze. If teachers would have been given just a freeze without the 2billion dollars removed from their benefits, this thread wouldn't exist.

Of the entire deficit (last I saw @ 16 billion) 2 billion to pay it down was coming out of teacher compensation and benefits. That's 12.5% of the deficit being paid down by teacher compensation and benefits. If you sit down and really digest these numbers, you may begin to realize why teachers are coming across as whiners. No matter how you slice it, that's a big hit, the extent to which no one else in the public sector is taking (to the best of my knowledge). If you can't see the teacher's side, you're probably just a teacher basher.

 

[jjbee62]

For all the requests for where I got my data on teacher pay scales, here it is:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/teacher-pay-canada-near-the-top-of-the-oecd-class/article4541629/

Two things to note, before screaming at me how those numbers can't be correct:
1) The data is from 2010, meaning the numbers are most likely lower than 2013 numbers.
2) The pay scales have all been converted to US dollars based upon buying power.

Buying power is an important thing to consider, when you're discussing pay scales. Making $1 million/year could mean that you're living in poverty if bread costs $1000/loaf. Making $10000/year could be big money if a new car costs $2000. I earlier estimated 20-25% difference between Canada and US, but after going through my expense receipts, it looks like the number is closer to 33%. If that number is correct, multiplying the numbers in the report by 1.33 should give you close to an actual pay scale.

If you look at the numbers breaking down the pay into an amount for each hour of teaching, you might want to take that with a grain of salt. Talk to some teachers and find out how many hours of non-teaching work goes into each hour of teaching.

I'd be interested to see where JohnLarue gets his numbers for average teacher salary being $83k annually. The 2010 numbers show that an elementary teacher with 15 years experience was making roughly $73k (based upon my 33% guess. "The Economist" estimates PPP-purchashing power parity for Canada at 24%, so my number may be inflated). Either the average teacher has much more than 15 years experience, or they have gotten some incredible pay raises over the past 3 years. From what I can find, it would appear that teachers in Canada are paid better than teachers in the states, and quite likely have better benefits. It doesn't appear as if they are in the top 10% and nearly in the top 5%, but they are earning more than average income. Whether or not they are being overpaid, is a matter open to much discussion (and finger-pointing, name-calling, ranting, raving, crying and everything else that passes for discussion online). If the general consensus is they are overpaid, there are probably options available to increase their value without violating their current contract.

In the end it is an issue of what you consider more important: Having a cheap education system, or having a good education system. You can't have both, although you can have an expensive crappy one.

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

"If you look at the numbers breaking down the pay into an amount for each hour of teaching, you might want to take that with a grain of salt. Talk to some teachers and find out how many hours of non-teaching work goes into each hour of teaching."

One hour of work at one job can be a hell of a lot less or more work than one hour of work at another job. That seems to be something John Larue is incapable of wrapping his head around. It's not just about hours worked but what actually goes into an hour of work.

An hour with some kids feels more like 3 or 4. I'd like to invite John Larue to see what an hour in front of today's kids feels like, and what actually goes into preparing for that hour and assessing how that hour went as well.

 

[harryass]

Ain't it the norm, that most folks in the public sector uses all of their illness, casual, general, family, sick days with full pay during the fiscal year? These sicky days are nor not normally carried forward to the next fiscal year so that's why they do it. Enlighten me if this not the case.

 

[JohnLarue]

.

I'd be interested to see where JohnLarue gets his numbers for average teacher salary being $83k annually.

There have been several threads on Teachers pay. It is a hot button issue!
There is a link to a website showing Ont teachers making $83K a year in several of those threads
A separate link shows the average taxpayer in Ont makes $40, $44 or $48K
It took a couple of minutes of Internet searching to find it


A lot of loony lefties did not realize the average Teachers Salary was that high
The Teachers on the board just avoided directly speaking to the absurd number, focusing on their rights, while ignoring the impact their actions have on the kids

I believe there has been a 20%+ increase in Teachers salaries over the past few of years

A separate website search showed that $83K is in the top 10% of all Canadian salaries , the top 5% was $85K or $89K.
either way $83 is pushing into a very select group of Canadians

No way in hell any of these Teachers (parasites) could command that kind of salary in the private sector, even if they were willing to work a full year & not leave @ 3:16
Ont is running larger & larger deficits and the provinces fiancés are a basketcase
We can not afford to continue paying such a ridiculous level of compensation to this special interest group, who place their collective bargaining rights ahead of the best interest of the kids
Teachers jobs exist for kids, not to enrich teachers
Sadly teachers do not understand this

You are a Yank, I will ask you to investigate properly before forming an opinion wrt how much Ont Teachers should be compensated

 

[JohnLarue]

"If you look at the numbers breaking down the pay into an amount for each hour of teaching, you might want to take that with a grain of salt. Talk to some teachers and find out how many hours of non-teaching work goes into each hour of teaching."

One hour of work at one job can be a hell of a lot less or more work than one hour of work at another job. That seems to be something John Larue is incapable of wrapping his head around. It's not just about hours worked but what actually goes into an hour of work.

An hour with some kids feels more like 3 or 4. I'd like to invite John Larue to see what an hour in front of today's kids feels like, and what actually goes into preparing for that hour and assessing how that hour went as well.

Pay me $83K and I will get back to you in the fall

Prepping????
Give me a break,
Once you taught the same lesson for 3 years if you have to prepare for it , you are out to lunch

 

[JohnLarue]

People say teachers are whiners over the whole situation but I don't think people realize the full extent of the issue. Most (except cops and maybe firefighters) in the public sectors are taking pay freezes. However, on top of a pay freeze, the province is pulling 2 billion in education funding, all of which is coming from slashes to teacher benefits and nothing from programming.

Dr's took a pay freeze but that's all they took. No real hits to their benefits. More than 100 mill. new dollars pumped into the system. Professors took a freeze, but again just a freeze. If teachers would have been given just a freeze without the 2billion dollars removed from their benefits, this thread wouldn't exist.

Of the entire deficit (last I saw @ 16 billion) 2 billion to pay it down was coming out of teacher compensation and benefits. That's 12.5% of the deficit being paid down by teacher compensation and benefits. If you sit down and really digest these numbers, you may begin to realize why teachers are coming across as whiners. No matter how you slice it, that's a big hit, the extent to which no one else in the public sector is taking (to the best of my knowledge). If you can't see the teacher's side, you're probably just a teacher basher.

So you are pissed not because an inappropriate perk was removed, but because it is not fair relative to other public servants
Think on a larger scale, what is appropriate relative to the average taxpayer

 

[simon482]

Pay me $83K and I will get back to you in the fall

Prepping????
Give me a break,
Once you taught the same lesson for 3 years if you have to prepare for it , you are out to lunch

i do the same job everyday and have to prep. most jobs need prep time.

 

[fgeorge75]

Well said jjbee62. I pretty much agree with all your points.

There's also some contract negotiation history which the teachers union seems completely inept at communicating.

The union has bargained for decades to get sick days in lieu of short term leave due to illness.

Some of the horribly tangled agreements can be found here: http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/nr/12.08/oecta2012eng.pdf

The union has also been completely inept at realizing that non-binding agreements are well.. non-binding. That teachers seem to be surprised by this is both amusing and sad to me.

I am skeptical that the education system will get any better. It hasn't really changed since the late 1700's during the industrial revolution when school was used as a means of training people to become ready for manual labor.

In my not-so-humble opinion, the teachers union and the province are both horribly corrupt and neither have any intention of maximizing the benefit of the public.

The atlantic has a good piece on education reform which is pretty interesting: http://www.theatlantic.com/national...gnoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

What's your teaching background John? Every class is different. Every year is different. The way you speak I'm sure you've spent many years in the classroom instructing kids. Tell us your background in pedagogy.

Pay me $83K and I will get back to you in the fall

Prepping????
Give me a break,
Once you taught the same lesson for 3 years if you have to prepare for it , you are out to lunch

 

[ZenSouljah]

Pay me $83K and I will get back to you in the fall

Prepping????
Give me a break,
Once you taught the same lesson for 3 years if you have to prepare for it , you are out to lunch

You start teaching way under that figure John and can only get up to the top of the pay grade by putting in your years as well as furthering your education via university courses which are on your own dime and own time.

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

When the range of salary is low 40's to low 90's the average salary is not 83k.

Go to teachers college. Get hired. In, no joke, 2024 you'll be making 83k. From there it's all private jets and caviar baby.

Pay me $83K and I will get back to you in the fall

Prepping????
Give me a break,
Once you taught the same lesson for 3 years if you have to prepare for it , you are out to lunch

 

[jjbee62]

You are a Yank, I will ask you to investigate properly before forming an opinion wrt how much Ont Teachers should be compensated

I haven't formed, or expressed an opinion on how much Ontario teachers should be compensated. I know, and have stated, cheap AND good are not possible when it comes to education systems. This is a nearly universal axiom.

I have found articles which give numbers consistent with what you have stated, and I will assume they are correct. Going from the 2011 salary numbers from the collective bargaining agreement, that looks as if the average is teachers with 9 years of experience comes out in that area. Extrapolate to 2013 and perhaps an average of 7 years experience. Seems reasonable to me. So the teachers are well paid, that would explain why there is a surplus on the job market. This doesn't alter my position on the OP, which is that teachers are within their rights to use the sick days they are contractually entitled to, and no fraud or wrong doing has occurred.

Teachers jobs exist for kids, not to enrich teachers
Sadly teachers do not understand this

All jobs exist to enrich others. They exist to enrich the employee, they exist (in most cases) to enrich the employer, they exist to enrich the general public. If teaching is not to enrich teachers, switch to an all volunteer education system. If the system is enriching the teachers disproportionately, the problem is not with the teachers, it is with the government. You're trying to tackle the problem from the wrong end. How often do private sector employees try to get the most possible from their employer? Does everyone accept the first offer and never try for a raise, or better benefits? My experience (YEMV) has been, once you get above the lowest levels of employment, expectations rise. Employers rarely offer top dollar, and quality employees rarely take the first offer. The tendency is for everyone to try and get the most for their efforts. Teachers are no exception. If the government has been too generous, and given away too much, should the teachers turn it down? Would you? I wouldn't. When it's raining soup, you grab the biggest bucket you can, not a tablespoon (to paraphrase a very old saying).

Bigger and bigger deficits are the inherent risk in any democracy (actually, in any government), panem et circenses. I feel your pain. There are two possible solutions; either do without, or pay more. Only problem is, most people are not willing to do either, so deficits grow and solutions get pushed back until the whole thing collapses.

 

[jjbee62]

I am skeptical that the education system will get any better. It hasn't really changed since the late 1700's during the industrial revolution when school was used as a means of training people to become ready for manual labor.

In my not-so-humble opinion, the teachers union and the province are both horribly corrupt and neither have any intention of maximizing the benefit of the public.

The atlantic has a good piece on education reform which is pretty interesting: http://www.theatlantic.com/national...gnoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

For an interesting insight into public education circa 1870's, I recommend H.G. Wells "Experiment in Autobiography". The entire book makes for interesting reading.

Unions take to corruption, like fish take to water. I don't believe their time has passed, but they are horribly out of step with their members. Every organization exists for the benefit of that organization, usually for the benefit of the leaders of that organization. Whether that organization is a union, a homeowners association, or a government, their first priority is in showing a personal profit.

My own belief is that the entire concept of the education system needs to be reexamined. Too much emphasis is based upon memorization, and not enough emphasis on actual learning. The schools might give students tools, but they rarely teach them how to use them.

 

[JohnLarue]

What's your teaching background John? Every class is different. Every year is different. The way you speak I'm sure you've spent many years in the classroom instructing kids. Tell us your background in pedagogy.

Oh, so the square root of 64 changes every year does it?

 

[JohnLarue]

All jobs exist to enrich others. They exist to enrich the employee, they exist (in most cases) to enrich the employer, they exist to enrich the general public. If teaching is not to enrich teachers, switch to an all volunteer education system. If the system is enriching the teachers disproportionately, the problem is not with the teachers, it is with the government.

The real problem is with the union

 

[JohnLarue]

When the range of salary is low 40's to low 90's the average salary is not 83k.

Go to teachers college. Get hired. In, no joke, 2024 you'll be making 83k. From there it's all private jets and caviar baby.

The average salary is $83K.
END OF ARGUEMENT!

There have been several threads on this and several quoted websites which explicitly state the average is $83K
There a lot of teachers with many years experience sticking it to the tax payer.

Please supply an official source refuting the average if you still do not understand / believe how expensive this group is

The issue is not what I would make if I started teaching
The issue is what it is costing the province right now and in the future

 

[FAST]

Flat line

I'll be taking a 1.5% pay cut next year, along with some big hits to my benefits. As will more than half of my colleagues. So if you ask me, as a teacher, am I taking a 1.5% cut next year, the only honest answer I can give you is yes. I'm not trying to speak lawyer speak. It's a complicated situation but one that means my salary gets cut.

The teacher's getting a small increase are actually the ones who are the worst off.

If you knew all of the details of the contract, my situation (taking a 1.5% cut with cuts to my benefits and not a single gain in the contract) is far superior to those getting slight increases. They're getting hit really hard. The cuts to benefits go deepest to the newbies.

Again,...I'm not calling you a liar, but I did a little research.
Figuring that if I went to a few union sites, that's were I would see some evidence of "pay cut"
But there was absolutely NO mention ever, of the possibility of a teacher having his/her salary reduced from one year to the next.
A lot of charts etc., showing how much future income an example teacher is going to loose due to NOT receiving the "expected" increase, and lose of benefits,...but NEVER an example of a teachers salary going down.

Unless you can show me some actual evidence of this, we appear to be at a standoff.

FAST

 

[Toke]

make the banked sick days payout at end of year

instead of raise

coming to work everyday will get you your raise at end of year

if you are genuinely sick all the time then change your habits

Of course that is better than the current situation. However, most here think the current is worse.

$83K per year.