Teachers union supports Liberals after bribe

[clubber]

Again, you are looking back over decade, to someone that was disgraced and has left public life. Try to do better in your arguements about the current realities.

And don't believe everything you hear about Snobelen.

That was just one of many in the debate. It was there to show just how Mike Harris felt and treated the teachers. If you remember in a like incident with the NDP Peter Kormos hired a guy who was convicted of beating his wife to look after something in women's rights. Bob Rae fired Kormos right away.

I also mentioned how Harris called them glorified babysitters. He tried to start a war with them. He blamed the wrongs of our education system on the teachers. Cut money and put in a formula that closed schools, and expanded class size.

I also mentioned the new guy John Tory wanting to bring in private religious schools. He is playing games with the education system for his own gain. Trying to draw on the religious people for votes by weakening our system.

But hey cool you found one thing took it out of context. Very Tory of you.

 

[clubber]

Perhaps you could actually name one of these mythical tax breaks reserved only for the rich that were granted by the provincial Tories.

The same ones he gave to the poor, except that when you have money you get more back. I don't claim to be rich but I make more and got a lot more back in taxes then the average guy in a factory. Some of these guys were lucky to get back 2 or 3 bucks a pay. I got back over 100 dollars. I admit that I get overpaid when compared to the guys who work in factories or much of the service area.

They also cut taxes for businesses and the bigger the business the more they of a break they got.

By the way the wealthiest financial institution in Ontario is the Teachers pension fund.


Don't they still own the Maple Leafs? Their pension fund was quite well invested. My Aunt was one of the people running it for a few years. If only the Conservatives were as good with money Harris would not have left us with such a debt during good times.


They have a decent educational system there. Perhaps if a majority of the voters have had enough they can toss Mcquinty out ....that my friend is the true definitintion of democracy.

Cuba does very well with what limited things they have.

As far as Snobelen was concerned - yes that was a big mistake but, if you recall, it was Harris that fired him once it was realized. Actually the fact that someone is bringing up something that happened 10 years ago to just to gloss over the inaction of the current government is interesting. If the best one can do to justify the actions of the Liberals was to say someone 10 years ago who was education minister for eighteen months was worse.......well you have to admit , that's pretty lame.

It would be since you took it out of context. I put that in to show just what Mike Harris thinking was. He was not actually fired he was made the Minister of Transportation. Since trucking was Snobelen's business and he new it, but then there was allegations of corruption and like every good politician Harris swept it under the rug, and Snobelen did not run the next time.

 

[Never Compromised]

I also mentioned the new guy John Tory wanting to bring in private religious schools. He is playing games with the education system for his own gain. Trying to draw on the religious people for votes by weakening our system.

Well, just how did the system get weakened when the Catholic system was funded? How is the system going to be weakened this time?

And as far as being a vote getter for Tory, I think the opposite is true. With the exception of a few Urban Toronto ridings, the "natural base" of the Progressive Conservative Party seems to be upset with this announcement.

So, again tell me why Tory is doing it?

 

[train]

It would be since you took it out of context. I put that in to show just what Mike Harris thinking was. He was not actually fired he was made the Minister of Transportation. Since trucking was Snobelen's business and he new it, but then there was allegations of corruption and like every good politician Harris swept it under the rug, and Snobelen did not run the next time.

From my perspective the only government that had the balls to stand up to the Teachers and tell them that they couldn't have whatever they wanted was Harris. It was about time too as the Teachers were doing a mediocre job, at best, based on student testing results comparisons with other provinces. What really disgusted me was the Teacher's resistance to any attempt to instill accountability for their performance . Very telling. There is a reason why Ontario's education system lags behind many other provinces. At least the Tories acknowledged this " elephant in the room". McQuinty just feeds it and lets it do whatever it wants.

I see in the paper that having fallen behind in the polls that the Liberals have now reversed their stance of a few months ago on funding municipal social programs in an attempt to buy the "city vote". So first the teachers and now the inner city vote......and hey their using your money to do it.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

I wish Mike would run again. I miss the fat bastard.

 

[Bearlythere]

Here is where it stands. I am a conservative and I thought John Snoboblen was an idiot, but 18 months of him as Minister of Education didn't kill the school system. The fact remains that our students are not doing as well as we would like. Full stop. The fact remains that the teachers Union has done EVERYTHING they can to not change a damned thing except guarntee their wage increases and pensions. That is not a lie and that is been borne out by the constant PR campaign that the teaching unions have saying "protect public education". They whitewash it into saying they are for your kids, but if it meant a 1% pay cut to provide the best system possible, they wouldn't take it.

I think teachers have a tough job, I think they have a unique job, and they are well compensated for it. For Scouser to come on here and tell me he isn't well compensated is full of crap. Join the real world where you can be in a factory slugging for 12 bucks an hour. Do construction and work until your back breaks for 18 bucks an hour. Drive a truck for 18 an hour or less for 14 hour days. Teaching is a privlidged profession, much like being a doctor or a nurse. It is tough, and you don't do it for the money, you are there because it is your passion. If more people in teaching thought this way, we wouldn't have mediocre test results. In fact we wouldn't have had to elect Mike Harris to get some accountability in the system in the way of test results because true professionals would demand accountablity from their members. Instead they protect the inept, while whining how tough their job is.

I have a lot of time for what teachers are trying to do, and I know there are some damned fine people in the profession, and I know they care. That said, I would wager, like in most jobs, about 33% should be doing something else. I remember my school years and the teachers who were there only to hang onto get a pension or a pay check were patently obvious and contributed little to my education. We should NOT be in favour of defending every teacher as if they were all dedicated. The sad reality is they are not. If you cannot admit to this, then you are lost.

As for Dalton buying their Union's support, he would give money out on the street if he thought he could get away with it and get him another majority. The man has great personality as a guy, but put him in office, and I just see a weasel. He has lied to us so many times before that it is obvious he has no guiding princples but getting elected again, and like all Libreals, he is very fast and loose with the truth. This is nothing new, and before anyone jumps on me as a Tory supporter, I can tell you there is a lot with that little turd Iam not happy with either. He should grow a set of balls more often. His views on religion and schools don't really give me great cheer, but at least he is willing to stand up for some sort of principle. IF Dalton thought it would win him the next election, he would jump on the idea immediately......the man has NO scruples.

 

[basketcase]

When the "students aren't doing well" comes up, I always wonder what this opinion is based on. What worries me about the current system is that there is more on an emphasis on the optics on getting more kids to pass than to actually do something to ensure that they are being taught. The same seems to be true with suspensions. A friend laughed his way through elementary school because he new he couldn't fail. Now it seems that the same kind of policies are being continued to secondary school. I guess it's still better than private schools where kids are pretty much guaranteed a 70.

 

[LancsLad]

When the "students aren't doing well" comes up, I always wonder what this opinion is based on. What worries me about the current system is that there is more on an emphasis on the optics on getting more kids to pass than to actually do something to ensure that they are being taught. The same seems to be true with suspensions. A friend laughed his way through elementary school because he new he couldn't fail. Now it seems that the same kind of policies are being continued to secondary school. I guess it's still better than private schools where kids are pretty much guaranteed a 70.

My son attended private schools all the way through. I was not aware that they offered a guarantee of 70% to all students. Please note a citation or advertising material to back up your claim.

At the school my son attended they actually failed students and encouraged the dull bulbs to look elsewhere.

 

[basketcase]

No school gives a guarentee, it is just that many private schools put the teachers under major expectations for the kids do well. They often imply that (lacking serious issues - and yes, they are selective about who they let in and who they keep in) the teacher should be doing more to "ensure" the student's success. In a battle between a parent paying $20,000+ and a teacher on a year to year contract who is making only a couple times more than that, it's pretty simple to know where the school will side.

My source is teachers I know in several high-priced private schools.

 

[LancsLad]

No school gives a guarentee, it is just that many private schools put the teachers under major expectations for the kids do well. They often imply that (lacking serious issues - and yes, they are selective about who they let in and who they keep in) the teacher should be doing more to "ensure" the student's success. In a battle between a parent paying $20,000+ and a teacher on a year to year contract who is making only a couple times more than that, it's pretty simple to know where the school will side.

My source is teachers I know in several high-priced private schools.

Thats the beauty of free enterprise then. At my sons school his best friends father was on the Board . It was NEVER a given that the teacher lost in a sitution like you suggest. It went on merit and to their credit in one serious case of the lack of smarts a very significant donors child was counselled out. In the serious battle for students dollars most farsighted schools do not loose sight of the fact that their major draw is the academic reputation. You can't keep a high success ratio and quality University acceptance ratio by allowing too many rich dullards to call the shots. there will always be isolated rare examples that someone can cite but by and large their market driven approach serves them well.

 

[clubber]

Here is where it stands. I am a conservative and I thought John Snoboblen was an idiot, but 18 months of him as Minister of Education didn't kill the school system. The fact remains that our students are not doing as well as we would like. Full stop. The fact remains that the teachers Union has done EVERYTHING they can to not change a damned thing except guarntee their wage increases and pensions. That is not a lie and that is been borne out by the constant PR campaign that the teaching unions have saying "protect public education". They whitewash it into saying they are for your kids, but if it meant a 1% pay cut to provide the best system possible, they wouldn't take it.

I think teachers have a tough job, I think they have a unique job, and they are well compensated for it. For Scouser to come on here and tell me he isn't well compensated is full of crap. Join the real world where you can be in a factory slugging for 12 bucks an hour. Do construction and work until your back breaks for 18 bucks an hour. Drive a truck for 18 an hour or less for 14 hour days. Teaching is a privlidged profession, much like being a doctor or a nurse. It is tough, and you don't do it for the money, you are there because it is your passion. If more people in teaching thought this way, we wouldn't have mediocre test results. In fact we wouldn't have had to elect Mike Harris to get some accountability in the system in the way of test results because true professionals would demand accountablity from their members. Instead they protect the inept, while whining how tough their job is.

I have a lot of time for what teachers are trying to do, and I know there are some damned fine people in the profession, and I know they care. That said, I would wager, like in most jobs, about 33% should be doing something else. I remember my school years and the teachers who were there only to hang onto get a pension or a pay check were patently obvious and contributed little to my education. We should NOT be in favour of defending every teacher as if they were all dedicated. The sad reality is they are not. If you cannot admit to this, then you are lost.

As for Dalton buying their Union's support, he would give money out on the street if he thought he could get away with it and get him another majority. The man has great personality as a guy, but put him in office, and I just see a weasel. He has lied to us so many times before that it is obvious he has no guiding princples but getting elected again, and like all Libreals, he is very fast and loose with the truth. This is nothing new, and before anyone jumps on me as a Tory supporter, I can tell you there is a lot with that little turd Iam not happy with either. He should grow a set of balls more often. His views on religion and schools don't really give me great cheer, but at least he is willing to stand up for some sort of principle. IF Dalton thought it would win him the next election, he would jump on the idea immediately......the man has NO scruples.

Many different governments have done many studies to make our education system better. Many run by teachers and the teacher's unions. Few have ever acted much on them. One I know my Aunt worked on back in the days of Peterson. A lot of our tax money and a lot of time was spent on it. It got read then passed over. Lip service was done to some areas. The same has been happening since the days of Davis. Each party has had a some time in office. None have acted.

Ask teachers. Many of them are very very frustrated by the system. A great many children do not get the education they deserve. Much of this is due to the system, and NOT the teachers. I live around several schools and know a many teachers who give more than 8 hours a day. One guy I know starts at 7AM every day to prepare his classes, often attend meetings. After school he stays to run the Theater Arts club, and tutor some students that need special help. He arrives home usually about 7PM. Then dinner and marking papers. He calls it family time because his wife is also a teacher and she sits in the same room also making homework. Yet he does love it, and would not change his job for the world. He makes much less than myself or some of the other neighbours. He works does more than most teachers I think.

The thing is most teacher's want change, but the right sort of change. They want smaller class sizes to be able to give more individual time to each student, not just the dumbest and the smartest. They want more prep time. They want the children coming into their classes to be at the level they should be at.

The Union is not the problem. They push for better education. It is just that their views differed from Harris's. Like any other job the person who usually knows how to do it best and what they need to do a better job is the person who is doing the job. If our governments of all parties actually listened to the teachers we would have a much better system. Instead it is run by politicians and pencil pushers who are always trying to find something in it for themselves.

Not every school in Ontario is the same. We have some excellent schools and some really crappy ones. We have a real problem and I am as guilty as everyone else. Partisan politics. There were somethings Harris tried to do that were right. Standardized testing I agree on. I think he tried to bring in standardized report cards and this was a big success. I think he recognized that there was a real problem when a child moved. He was faced with a very different standard from board to board. He tried to cut the paper work but went about it the wrong way. He simply cut money without giving any direction other than cut the paperwork. Some school boards have very little paper, while others are so bogged down in it. He tried to bring in new text books, unfortunately they made a mega costly mistake. I think most remember the books that fell apart easily. He had more than one idiot Minister. For his part he knew that the education system could do better, and should do better for the money we were spending on it. He knew it had been studied to death. However he thought he knew better than all the studies by all the experts. His biggest mistake was making enemies of the teachers, and going after the unions. Any fool knows you have to work with what you have to improve things, not work against them.

As for Dalton he is typical of the Liberals, he blows with the wind. He wants to stay in power and is willing to do what is popular. He is now making the reverse mistake that Harris did, he is giving money to the boards without much direction as to how they are to use it. I wonder how much will be given to the boards that really do not need it that much as compared to those that do. For all the crisis that Harris brought in, I think he got many people looking at what was wrong with the system. Dalton I think is just going to send it back to the way it was. I think many teachers want a better system, but are must happy to be done with Harris. I know I am

 

[Bearlythere]

Well since we have found some common ground Clubber, then lets just say that Harris didn't do things right, but he had the right idea in that the educational system is NOT accountable to the parents and isn't equitable. Now in making an enemy of the teachers, I think that was going to happen no matter what. The teachers were at war to an extent with the NDP, and they are getting along with the Libreals because the libreals are not cutting anything and giving the teachers their smaller class sizes. The only lie in all of this is that there is no guarntee this will improve the education of the kids. What is more, McGuinty still isn't ready to look at holding the boards more accountable. Putting Boards on notice that they couldn't be soft places for politico's to learn their trade while earning a full salary was a great thing Harris did. School boards are ineptly run at times, and some of the political rhetoric that has gone on with the TDSB when they run in the red is obviously politically motivated.

I think that everyone in the system has to do better with what they have, and the way to do it is to put out a voucher system for schools. Put down standards and a level of curriculum and let the public decide. Most will still end up using the public boards, but I can tell you this much. The bright kids wont be stuck in bad schools run by uncaring teachers, and schools with bad reps will be either cleaned up or shut down. There has to be some level of accountability, and it has been obvious for a while that much of the standardized testing has pointed out flaws in the system. Just some schools are always on the bottom. There has to be some consequence to that, and if vouchers are the way to do it ( and they have worked in many counties in the US) then it is the only way we improve our schools. For the price per student that we are paying now, we are NOT getting our money's worth.

AS for McGuinty, it isnt just his educational buy off this last week that has me ticked with him. Education is one of the few areas where he has at least held serve......

 

[clubber]

Well since we have found some common ground Clubber, then lets just say that Harris didn't do things right, but he had the right idea in that the educational system is NOT accountable to the parents and isn't equitable. Now in making an enemy of the teachers, I think that was going to happen no matter what. The teachers were at war to an extent with the NDP, and they are getting along with the Libreals because the libreals are not cutting anything and giving the teachers their smaller class sizes. The only lie in all of this is that there is no guarntee this will improve the education of the kids. What is more, McGuinty still isn't ready to look at holding the boards more accountable. Putting Boards on notice that they couldn't be soft places for politico's to learn their trade while earning a full salary was a great thing Harris did. School boards are ineptly run at times, and some of the political rhetoric that has gone on with the TDSB when they run in the red is obviously politically motivated.

I think that everyone in the system has to do better with what they have, and the way to do it is to put out a voucher system for schools. Put down standards and a level of curriculum and let the public decide. Most will still end up using the public boards, but I can tell you this much. The bright kids wont be stuck in bad schools run by uncaring teachers, and schools with bad reps will be either cleaned up or shut down. There has to be some level of accountability, and it has been obvious for a while that much of the standardized testing has pointed out flaws in the system. Just some schools are always on the bottom. There has to be some consequence to that, and if vouchers are the way to do it ( and they have worked in many counties in the US) then it is the only way we improve our schools. For the price per student that we are paying now, we are NOT getting our money's worth.

AS for McGuinty, it isnt just his educational buy off this last week that has me ticked with him. Education is one of the few areas where he has at least held serve......

I don't think it is so much accountability as direction that the school boards need. That is really what leadership is all about is providing a sense of direction. The teachers are very accountable if a parent gets involved. In a huge way it is up to parents to get involved. Talk to the teachers, and their children about what is going on. Go to board meetings. I think that is one of the biggest problems is parents drop kids off a school and trust in others.

The first and earliest educators and the most important is the parents. I know my sister got stuff done just by talking to the teacher.

We don't need a scattered approach to schools with each being different. We need a singular system. That seemed to be what Harris was trying for. One report card for all schools. That is a great idea. Each school should be on the same system teaching the same history, the same geography and the same English. It should challenge the kids and not bore them.

The goal of course is a perfect education system, but that is impossible. There will always be those who fall through the cracks. Smaller class sizes will give the child better access to the teacher and learning tools. It is not even all the way up that we need this, but in the earliest years of the education system. Teach them how to learn.

One of the things I do not like about any system of many private schools is we suddenly have many different systems. It is harder later for the student to change to a new system. You tend to get kids learning different versions of history. They enter University at different levels of learning.

Remember that Newfoundland just got rid of it's system based on religious private schools. It was considered the worst education system in all of Canada.

 

[slowpoke]

If Tory's plan requires faith-based schools to meet the same standards as our regular schools and to use the same accredited teachers, the non-religious portion of the educational experience should be pretty much the same across the board. So if this is just about education in the academic sense, why bother with special schools? Is it just more convenient to take your religious training in the same building as your regular classes? Or is it all about sectarian parents wanting schools to double as religious and social cocoons, reducing their kids' exposure to mainstream Canadian diversity in favour of a more homogeneous and ideologically controlled environment. Or maybe these same minorites feel taxpayers ought to be paying for the same specialized religious instruction they were previously paying for at expensive private schools. Whatever the reasons, this is asking our educational institutions to do more than simply educate our kids. This is about asking schools to take a greater role in socializing our kids than they ought to be taking. Religious instruction and social engineering are parental responsibilities. Leave the schools out of it.

 

[danmand]

Thats the beauty of free enterprise then. At my sons school his best friends father was on the Board . It was NEVER a given that the teacher lost in a sitution like you suggest. It went on merit and to their credit in one serious case of the lack of smarts a very significant donors child was counselled out. In the serious battle for students dollars most farsighted schools do not loose sight of the fact that their major draw is the academic reputation. You can't keep a high success ratio and quality University acceptance ratio by allowing too many rich dullards to call the shots. there will always be isolated rare examples that someone can cite but by and large their market driven approach serves them well.

At the school, my children went to, the grades given were
generally lower than the grades given at the public schools.
Universities are well aware of the differences in grading between schools.

 

[onthebottom]

I like this thread, it's one of a very few that can stay focused on CANADIAN politics without degrading to a referendum on a US policy.

Keep it up.

OTB

 

[basketcase]

The changes that Mike Harris made were all Bush's fault.

Happy otb?

 

[scouser1]

its those lazy teachers I tell ya, they only work 6 hours a day, take two months of in the summer, plus Christmas and March break, with their huge salaries and benefits

 

[onthebottom]

its those lazy teachers I tell ya, they only work 6 hours a day, take two months of in the summer, plus Christmas and March break, with their huge salaries and benefits

Short days 8 months a year, but you can retire early.......

OTB

 

[Bearlythere]

I agree Slowpoke, I don't want religious schools either, but the problem lies in that the actual Constitution of Canada says in it that a separate school board system is legal. When it was written, they were trying to protect the rights of Catholics in Quebec. Now, in this new world of schools and religion, it is the hammer that might crack everything open.

I am against Tory being for this but he is playing politics where he doesn't have to. God knows there are enough things Micksquinty has done wrong that you can run a campaign on correcting some of that, but Tory seems to think this is a princple that has to be honoured because of the legality in our system to support the Separate school boad.

As for Universities being aware of differences in school quality, I wonder if they had any measure for it before Harris brought in the school rating system.

Now, if it is pointed out we should be on the school boards for accountability, I totally agree, yet look at how many people elect trustee's to school boards? People are not educated on the importance of voting and paying attention to this stuff, and that is a lot of the base for the screwed up overpriced education system we have.