THE PLOT THICKENS!!!! More Arrests!

[Shtumffed]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/01/18/4779693-sun.html

I wonder what they will find on the computers and who is going to get the first phone call? I hope that all the girls are well.

 

[fuji]

I wish they would identify the websites and/or the agency. I bet there is someone here on terb who knows something that might help the police hunt down and arrest these guys.

I repeat my statement on the other thread:

We are the customers who respond to the ads these guys post. We are involved whether we like it or not, and we have a duty to ensure that our money and our activities are not resulting in abuse or suffering. We are better positioned than anyone else in society to notice these things happening and stop them--it would be pretty hard for these places to operate if the average customer was on the lookout for them and willing to co-operate (perhaps anonymously) with the police to shut them down. Given that there are so many women happily doing this job of their own volition there is no excuse whatsoever for tolerating these disgusting, horrendous crimes.

I also believe that we should all make a habit out of telling women what their rights are and what their alternatives are in any situation where there is the slightest doubt that she is working voluntarily. These women are scared, they've been lied to and threatened, and they probably have no idea just how easy it would actually be for them to walk into a police station and put a stop to it all. These scams rely on the victims remaining fearful and ignorant. A few positive words about what would really happen if they did--that they would not be charged with a crime, or even necessarily deported, that they would receive help and support instead--may give them the hope and courage necessary to stop it. Passing on Wendy Leavar's (spelling?) phone number (police officer known to be helpful with sex workers) might enable someone who has lost hope to end her own torture with a phone call.

We play a role here whether we like it or not; it's up to us to make sure that it is a positive role. It's a duty.

 

[Aardvark154]

By Russian Organized Crime standards this seems to have been a very amateur operation. Not at all what normally reads or hears about this sort of "forced sex trafficking." The woman arrives in October and at the most three and a half months later walks into a police station.

 

[dcbogey]

While I agree that this is a terrible situation, I am wondering why the link that reveals personal information on this thread is allowed to remain while other links in other threads have been removed.

 

[fuji]

While I agree that this is a terrible situation, I am wondering why the link that reveals personal information on this thread is allowed to remain while other links in other threads have been removed.

I think it's posting personal information here that is not allowed, not posting links to major news outlets? Once someones name has been posted in the Toronto Star it hardly seems like terb is making it worse by posting a link to the Star article. Someone want to clarify?

I would certainly hope that the policies on terb do not prevent the community here from helping to expose people who engage in serious crime like this.

Question: If the police asked to post a notice looking for further information on a crime, that included details, such as the names of some of the accused they had arrested and/or were looking for, etc., would terb help out?

I would hope so.

We will get a lot further trying to persuade the justice system, politicians, to handle prostitution issues and laws more fairly if we ourselves are seen to be playing the role of good citizens.

 

[Aardvark154]

I am wondering why the link that reveals personal information on this thread is allowed to remain while other links in other threads have been removed.

Bogey, I'd argue that public record is public record. Once the details are in every major newspaper to me it would seem rather "ostrich like" for the mods and Fred to say that it’s 'personal information' according to the TERB rules.

 

[trisket]

Terb isn't a regulator or police force for the industry, that's a bit much to ask. Who would join if they could be turned in?

Start up your own rescue taskforce, fuji - you'll get plenty of people who will join up.

 

[dcbogey]

I think it's posting personal information here that is not allowed, not posting links to major news outlets? Once someones name has been posted in the Toronto Star it hardly seems like terb is making it worse by posting a link to the Star article. Someone want to clarify?

I tend to agree but those are the types of links that have been deleted - information that was publicly available.

I would certainly hope that the policies on terb do not prevent the community here from helping to expose people who engage in serious crime like this.

Question: If the police asked to post a notice looking for further information on a crime, that included details, such as the names of some of the accused they had arrested and/or were looking for, etc., would terb help out?

I would hope so.

We will get a lot further trying to persuade the justice system, politicians, to handle prostitution issues and laws more fairly if we ourselves are seen to be playing the role of good citizens.

It's a noble sentiment but I don't think that the "moral majority" will ever see those that partake in the sex trade as good citizens.

 

[Fabulous]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/01/18/4779693-sun.html

I wonder what they will find on the computers and who is going to get the first phone call? I hope that all the girls are well.


"LEAD TO CLIENTS

Ervick said investigators are now waiting to see what technicians find on the computers. They are hoping to find records that will lead them to clients, who may be able to help in the investigation, and the women working for the escort agencies. "

Somebody should tell the dumbass cops to take out an ad on terb, instead of harassing and scaring off clients, potentially ruining their livelyhood. Let the people come forward on their own. Shit like that from the cops makes it harder for legit escorts to conduct their work safely.

 

[fuji]

If it is the agency some have speculated that it is (since it's speculation I am not saying which one), it's worth noting that there are actual reviews for that agency posted on terb.

 

[fuji]

It's a noble sentiment but I don't think that the "moral majority" will ever see those that partake in the sex trade as good citizens.

You might be surprised, a number of the articles and oped's that have been written up about this industry over the years, many written by women, have been surprisingly open minded. There are a fair number of people out there who think that consenting adults ought to be able to do whatever they want to do.

If that is the way we want people to see it then we can start out by making it damn well clear to everyone that we are just as intolerant towards NON-consensual sex as anyone else.

This case is ultimately about sex that is hard to describe as consensual. At the end of these days these women were not fully volutnary participants, and that is disgusting.

I would have thought everyone here would be pretty outraged and chomping at the bit to do something about it--it shocks me that there are a few here who are not.

Those few of you who think we ought to do nothing or that it is not our problem I will say bluntly that you are not quality human beings.

 

[Hugh G. Rekshun]

Somebody should tell the dumbass cops to take out an ad on terb, instead of harassing and scaring off clients, potentially ruining their livelyhood... Shit like that from the cops makes it harder for legit escorts to conduct their work safely.

That might just be some BS they tell the newspapers because they think it sounds good. They've said it before, but I've never heard of them actually calling customers. I don't see how it would really help them much, and as far as I know customers of escort agencies probably aren't doing anything that is illegal in Canada.
As for "legit escorts", the line "He said some of the women probably knew exactly what they were getting into" is about as close as the cops will get to acknowledging they exist. Cops and the media still like to deny there is such a thing, even though we and the cops know there's likely hundreds of them in the Toronto area alone.

 

[fuji]

I don't see how it would really help them much, and as far as I know customers of escort agencies probably aren't doing anything that is illegal in Canada.

You're a material witness to a crime. They're not going to charge you.

They need proof that prostitution was taking place in order to get some of the big charges against the agency operators to stick (eg: procuring, living off the avails, etc.)

For example, the agency owners might simply deny that any prostitution was taking place, and your statement would help contradict that.

If it was incall you might want to be careful as in that case you were engaged in a crime too--though the cops are not really after you, if you hand them a case, maybe not smart.

By the way the AGENCY is committing a crime in Canada, even though the escort and the client are not (outcall). The agency can still be found to be procuring prostitutes, living off the avails, and so on.

On top of that they would want to know if you saw any evidence of maltreatment, abuse, etc., that would contribute to their charges of forcible confinement, uttering threats, intimidation, and so on.

 

[Shtumffed]

Looks like the Ace of Hearts site is down. ???? Any relation to what is in the news?

 

[fuji]

I don't think we should be speculating about which agency it is until someone has some verifiable fact or news story or police report or something else to go on. This is a pretty serious charge and allegations of sexual slavery could do a LOT of damage

I have my own ideas about which agency it is but I am keeping that to myself because I only have speculation and guesses, not facts to share.

Hopefully we will learn something concrete soon, I think there are probably people around here who might know something helpful to the police once it's known which agency this is.

Until then though it would be unfair to list some agency as being the one and then find out later they are completely innocent and never coerced anyone.

 

[fuji]

According to this article:

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/01/16/4775751-sun.html

Whatever agency it was operated on an outcall only basis. According to the story when they are not out on a call they are pretty carefully watched.

That means that if any of us ever encounter one of these women we really may be her only hope.

When you are the only person who can help you have a pretty clear duty to do so.

Since it's on an outcall basis that also means the customers in this case are not guilty of any crime--the police would be looking for information. Hopefully they respect people's need for discretion in doing so, and equally hopefully, if anyone does have any information, hopefully they help in whatever way they can.

 

[fuji]

This is interesting:

"In an effort to reach other victims involved in the Toronto case, Crime Stoppers has posted a video in Russian on YouTube and Facebook and hopes people will copy it to other sites to persuade the women to come forward."

Anyone have a link, speak russian, and can translate what it says? I think a link to it should definately feature on terb. If someone DID run into a woman on an outcall basis that they thought was in some trouble they could play this video

 

[Chimpanzeethat]

You all know my thoughts on the matter.....

I dislike people that control the ladies and slavery or forced sex is something I absolutely detest.

Whew. Thanks for confirming that.

 

[rama putri]

Knowing what I know, I doubt this lady was a slave. I'm pretty sure she knew what she was getting into when she answered the ad in question. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she got buyer's regret, but suspect she's smarter than that. Of course this scenario doesn't lend itself to the Fuji's human-trafficking-Hollywood-version.

Don't mis-understand me, i am NOT saying human trafficking doesn't occur. It occurs every hour. Just not here in the magnitude that likes to be sensationalized by some.

 

[fuji]

Dude, I agree and think I wrote somewhere above that they do likely know what they are getting into, and I agree it's most likely a case of buyers regret.

Still though, are you saying it is OK to keep someone working as an escort through threats and intimidation after they've said they don't want to do it anymore?

Sex should always be consensual, in my books.