Why is there so much violent crime in America?

[viking1965]

Entirely true!

You can argue that firearms enable more killing, but most people don't use automatic weapons. The experience in the U.K. was ban pistols, people who have access use long guns. Restrict long guns (or short cut for those without access to long guns) people use edged weapons, restrict edged weapons and people use blunt objects.

The bottom line is homicidal people are homicidal people.

Yes, but you cannot argue that there are some crimes that would have absolutely either never have been committed at all or would have certainly been less deadly with tighter gun control laws.

Colombine, Virginia Tech, and the recent Pittsburgh police shooting come to mind immediately.

Again, a gun (even a .22 pistol in the hands of a gang-banger) will allow a coward to commit an act he (or she) wouldn't commit if they had to resort to some lesser weapon and true physical confrontation..

 

[Aardvark154]

Colombine, Virginia Tech, and the recent Pittsburgh police shooting come to mind immediately. . . .wouldn't commit if they had to resort to some lesser weapon.

They were horrible crimes - however you have just named four crimes (I'll add Binghamton, New York) so for four crimes the U.S. should be entirely reshaped in the image of Canada? I'm proud of both, but each is distinct.

There is a reason such things stand out - they are rare.

And if gun control is the answer how does one explain the École Polytechnique murders.

 

[fuji]

Is there rampant gun violence in Palm Springs, Scottsdale, and Aspen that we should know about?

Yes. I think the only reason you don't consider it "rampant" is because you live in such a violent society that you have become jaded, and no longer value human life the same way people do in safer countries.

The murder rate in Colorado is 50% higher than the murder rate in Canada, Aspen is too small to have meaningful statistics on its own but I found a reference saying its crime rate was about the same as the rest of the state, so that's the best I can do. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cocrime.htm

In Palm Springs had 10 murders out of a population of 48,000 people which on the face of it is a murder rate ten times higher than in Canada. With such a small population that might just be a statistical anomaly--but then again, it does look like gun crime is rampant everywhere else in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000_-_60,000))

Scottsdale had 7 murders out of 221k people which is about 3.2 per 100k, not far off of OTB's figure that whites kill 3.5 per 100k--so yes, rampant in Scottsdale as well. http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Scottsdale&state=AZ

 

[fuji]

Peace, Order and Good Government.

Perhaps there is a reason why "Wall Street" is on Wall Street and not on Bloor Street.

As opposed to, say, the City of London?

 

[Aardvark154]

As opposed to, say, the City of London?

They go back and forth, but in most ways "Wall Street" passed "the City" decades ago despite "the City's" head start. I believe you would find that the majority of British Investors would agree with the sentiment.

 

[onthebottom]

The focus on Guns is interesting - the data shows there are quite a few non-gun murders: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/gunpctagetab.htm

OTB

 

[viking1965]

They were horrible crimes - however you have just named four crimes (I'll add Binghamton, New York) so for four crimes the U.S. should be entirely reshaped in the image of Canada? I'm proud of both, but each is distinct.

There is a reason such things stand out - they are rare.

And if gun control is the answer how does one explain the École Polytechnique murders.

I'll presume that it was NOT BY MISTAKE that you replaced my comment about the gang-banger with a .22 with the elipsis.

I never proposed reshaping any country in the image of any other, just introducing reasonable gun ownership laws.

They are still not rare enough.

How many crimes similar to Ecole Polytechnique have occurred in Canada since 1989. I'm sure in the US, it's in the dozens.

 

[viking1965]

Yes. I think the only reason you don't consider it "rampant" is because you live in such a violent society that you have become jaded, and no longer value human life the same way people do in safer countries.

The murder rate in Colorado is 50% higher than the murder rate in Canada, Aspen is too small to have meaningful statistics on its own but I found a reference saying its crime rate was about the same as the rest of the state, so that's the best I can do. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cocrime.htm

In Palm Springs had 10 murders out of a population of 48,000 people which on the face of it is a murder rate ten times higher than in Canada. With such a small population that might just be a statistical anomaly--but then again, it does look like gun crime is rampant everywhere else in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000_-_60,000)

Scottsdale had 7 murders out of 221k people which is about 3.2 per 100k, not far off of OTB's figure that whites kill 3.5 per 100k--so yes, rampant in Scottsdale as well. http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Scottsdale&state=AZ

Neither the Aspen link nor the Scottsdale link specifies what portion of those murders were committed with guns. Your Palm Springs wikipedia link is broken, but I'll assume from your comments that those statistics are equally unspecific, and therefore irrelevant.

 

[fuji]

They go back and forth, but in most ways "Wall Street" passed "the City" decades ago despite "the City's" head start. I believe you would find that the majority of British Investors would agree with the sentiment.

On a per capita basis I guess Britain is still leading as a financial services center, the same way as on a per capita basis the United States leads the free world in violent crime.

If a country a fraction the size of the US can have a financial market that is competitive with Wall Street I am not buying your argument that some factor in America that enables Wall Street justifies all that violence.

 

[fuji]

Neither the Aspen link nor the Scottsdale link specifies what portion of those murders were committed with guns. Your Palm Springs wikipedia link is broken, but I'll assume from your comments that those statistics are equally unspecific, and therefore irrelevant.

True. So let me rephrase the question--why is there such a killing spree underway in Scottsdale, Palm Springs, and Aspen? Why is the murder rate in those places so much higher than it is in other Western democracies?

And note well we are talking about three communities that you cherry picked, and comparing them with the national average in other countries: There is truly a stupendous, horrifying level of violence in the United States!

 

[viking1965]

True. So let me rephrase the question--why is there such a killing spree underway in Scottsdale, Palm Springs, and Aspen? Why is the murder rate in those places so much higher than it is in other Western democracies?

And note well we are talking about three communities that you cherry picked, and comparing them with the national average in other countries: There is truly a stupendous, horrifying level of violence in the United States!

See my earlier comments about motive:

Money, Drugs, and Love/Sex.

We clearly have more of all three down here!!!!

BTW, I didn't "cherry pick" anything, they were three examples that merely came to mind. Furthermore, I didn't compare them to anything, you did.

 

[fuji]

See my earlier comments about motive:

Money, Drugs, and Love/Sex.

We clearly have more of all three down here!!!!

Nice joke, but I am not convinced. I still think the most likely of all the theories suggested is that it's easy access to guns that causes it to be 3-4/1000 in places like Scottsdale and Palm Springs; and that multiplied by failure to provide opportunities to the poor (ie: lack of a viable welfare program) that causes it to be 5x as high in other areas.

 

[Aardvark154]

I'll presume that it was NOT BY MISTAKE that you replaced my comment about the gang-banger with a .22 with the elipsis.

Actually I'd intended to delete everything after "immediately . . . ."

It wasn't an intent to reshape your words so such as what I was responding to - and the fact that we don't need 10,000 word quotes every single time we reply.

 

[Aardvark154]

a gun (even a .22 pistol in the hands of a gang-banger) will allow a coward to commit an act he (or she) wouldn't commit if they had to resort to some lesser weapon and true physical confrontation..

To a certain extent yes, you are right that many people have never had to take training in either self defense or swordsmanship. And there is something extremely personal about being thrust through, stabbed etc. . . and it involves a fair amount of skill.

You are also correct that a .22 cal pistol can do some real damage it it hits you in the right place and particularly if it "race-tracks" rather than exits. Then again a .45 ACP is going to make sure the the "gang banger" isn't going to bang again - certainly not that evening.

It is, however, for most people except for gang-bangers - and even for some of them - much harder to shoot someone than popular belief holds. I know there are a number of people here that have gone through this training - never draw a weapon if you aren't prepared to use it, never point a weapon at someone you aren't prepared to shoot, never shoot someone you aren't willing to kill. Those things aren't nearly as easily as they sound.

 

[wet_suit_one]

FYI, I would just like to applaud of you (the usual suspects and others) for carrying on a reasonably sane, intelligent discussion without getting into too much of a partisan flame war, childish idiociy or other stupidity that usually makes these threads utterly worthless and makes me damn you and all your descedents to the lowest levels of Hell.

Kudos to you all!

Carry on. Great discussion here!

Cheers!

 

[danmand]

It is, however, for most people except for gang-bangers - and even for some of them - much harder to shoot someone than popular belief holds. I know there are a number of people here that have gone through this training - never draw a weapon if you aren't prepared to use it, never point a weapon at someone you aren't prepared to shoot, never shoot someone you aren't willing to kill. Those things aren't nearly as easily as they sound.

That is, in my opinion, another popular Hollywood myth, repeated over and
over again in westerns. Reality is different.

 

[Aardvark154]

That is, in my opinion, another popular Hollywood myth, repeated over and over again in westerns. Reality is different.

We could argue until the cows come home, however, I have little desire to argue about something so personal.

Perhaps it really was easy for you. Much depends upon the circumstances.

 

[danmand]

We could argue until the cows come home, however, I have little desire to argue about something so personal.

Perhaps it really was easy for you. Much depends upon the circumstances.

Keep the cows inside today, it is raining. And the fish are not biting.

 

[viking1965]

Nice joke, but I am not convinced. I still think the most likely of all the theories suggested is that it's easy access to guns that causes it to be 3-4/1000 in places like Scottsdale and Palm Springs; and that multiplied by failure to provide opportunities to the poor (ie: lack of a viable welfare program) that causes it to be 5x as high in other areas.

So you're suggesting that the mere access to guns is providing the motive?

 

[viking1965]

Actually I'd intended to delete everything after "immediately . . . ."

It wasn't an intent to reshape your words so such as what I was responding to - and the fact that we don't need 10,000 word quotes every single time we reply.

But despite your intent you did reshape my words. My comment on the gun being a cowardly weapon was just as applicable to the "every day" gang banger as the "rare" mass murderer.

Your self serving omission caused that idea to be lost.