Why is there so much violent crime in America?

[Aardvark154]

That's a wonderful point but it basically says that Americans kill each other at unprecented rates because they have the freedom to do so.
That's a fairly sobering bit of reasoning is it not?

Yes, but seemingly like many such arguments it implies the way to "get results" is to take away freedoms. Pecular how that argument seems to go back and forth depending upon the goal. But of course we all know some goals are good and some goals are bad.


New York and Massachusetts both have very strict firearms laws - has that had much affect on crime involving the use of firearms? Not to my knowledge.

 

[train]

Yes, but seemingly like many such arguments it implies the way to "get results" is to take away freedoms. Pecular how that argument seems to go back and forth depending upon the goal. But of course we all know some goals are good and some goals are bad.

I'm not sure anyone has yet implied that the way to correct the problem involved restricting freedoms. I think everyone is trying to undrstand the why part first.

 

[viking1965]

New York and Massachusetts both have very strict firearms laws - has that had much affect on crime involving the use of firearms? Not to my knowledge.

That's because the majority of guns used in those crimes are obtained in, or imported from, states like Virginia and South Carolina, who have very lax gun laws.

This is why reasonable gun control laws need to be enacted at the federal, not the state, level.

 

[onthebottom]

Why is the US murder rate by whites nearly double the murder rate for all Canadians?

We have better aim?

OTB

 

[oldjones]

Achieving order requires a combination of authority and common values. A society that venerates individual freedoms like the US will have a hard time achieving order by either means alone, and it's a lot more acceptable these days—especially post 9/11—to impose authority by force. Imposing common values?—do not go there.

Which means you've got experts in violence on both sides of the legal line setting the pace and giving examples to all. Now mix in almost unlimited access to weaponry, and a minimalist ethic of social responsibility, and start spelling it with a capital T.

Clearly, for anyone of limited intellect, or self-control, there are lots of problems, and, "everyone else uses violence to solve theirs. So I will too!"

I'd say the state of debate is still at the: First "we have to agree we have a problem together" stage. The folks who still think violence is something they must personally take up arms to defend themselves from are still too numerous.

Until the folks who say, "defence solves nothing, and this must be solved" outnumber those guys, there will be no solution. Americans have to start learning to think collectively and creatively as a society.

 

[onthebottom]

Achieving order requires a combination of authority and common values. ........

Said another way, the homogenous a society the more order...... the US is a very heterogeneous society. And we're better shots.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

The murder rate in the United States is roughly three times higher than Canada's, and worse than some third world nations like Malaysia, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Uruguay, or India. No other modern Western democracy has a violent crime rate anywhere near as bad as the US; the next worst are Switzerland and Finland, but the US murder rate is roughly 50% higher than the murder rate in those countries.

Why?

Just for fun, do you have any sources for these stats?

OTB

 

[fuji]

Just for fun, do you have any sources for these stats?

OTB

I was using the list on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

Nation master has a similar list:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

 

[fuji]

Said another way, the homogenous a society the more order...... the US is a very heterogeneous society. And we're better shots.

OTB

Is the US really more hetrogenous than Canada? My understanding is that Toronto is about the most heterogeneous large city in the world. France is also pretty heterogeneous, including a lot of africans. Then there's "Londonistan".

 

[onthebottom]

I was using the list on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

Nation master has a similar list:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Murder rate per 100k is 6.6 in North America, 5.4 in Europe, 5.6 in the US.... doesn't seem that out of line. (based on your Wiki link)

OTB

 

[oldjones]

Thanks, OTB. Glad to know you think everything's just peachy-dandy.

 

[onthebottom]

Is the US really more hetrogenous than Canada? My understanding is that Toronto is about the most heterogeneous large city in the world. France is also pretty heterogeneous, including a lot of africans. Then there's "Londonistan".

Canada isn't Toronto, your black, arab and asian population is only 6%. Canada is a lilly-white country. source is World Fact Book.

France - 5-10% Muslim, 90% Christian... not that heterogeneous.....

The US is about:

13% Black
15% Hispanic
4% Asian
1% Native
66% Gringo

OTB

 

[Aardvark154]

That's because the majority of guns used in those crimes are obtained in, or imported from, states like Virginia and South Carolina, who have very lax gun laws.

This is why reasonable gun control laws need to be enacted at the federal, not the state, level.

This heads around the the old point that the "do-gooders" feel that the solution isn't locking up criminals but rather restricting everyone - which in practical terms in both New York and Massachusetts has meant restricting law abiding citizens while the criminals continue on their merry way.

 

[onthebottom]

Thanks, OTB. Glad to know you think everything's just peachy-dandy.

I don't remember saying that.

Why is this the last argument of someone who can't support their point?

OTB

 

[Aardvark154]

One point I never hear mentioned is how is it proposed that all the legal firearms be registered or confiscated or what ever the idea is short of a Gestapo like state and the likely resultant revolution?

Likewise at least one poster in another thread has mentioned the rise in the sale of firearms and ammunition in the U.S. merely on the possibility that the Administration may succumb to temptation and start meddling in this area.

One need only to look at the example of Prohibition in the U.S. to see what happens when the vast majority of the population has utterly no respect for the law of the land.

 

[oldjones]

Of course some—particularly the frightened—might look at the stats and say that was already the case.

Certainly taking the guns away isn't the answer. Although forcing bad guys to improvise their own tools might make them less efficient, they'll be just as bad.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Simple. Your gun laws are the most liberal.

Funny how in this regard, GOPers are flaming liberals....

Simple reason for all the crimes in America, too much poverty, too many guns, paranoia and money.....

 

[danmand]

Murder rate per 100k is 6.6 in North America, 5.4 in Europe, 5.6 in the US.... doesn't seem that out of line. (based on your Wiki link)

trying to pull a fast one again, OTB?

Western and central Europe 1.5

You want to compare yourself to africa and the former soviet union.

 

[onthebottom]

trying to pull a fast one again, OTB?

Western and central Europe 1.5

You want to compare yourself to africa and the former soviet union.

Just using the Wiki source I was given that says: Europe, 5.4

OTB

 

[danmand]

Just using the Wiki source I was given that says: Europe, 5.4

same one that says western and central europe 1.5