Teachers union supports Liberals after bribe

[clubber]

If Tory's plan requires faith-based schools to meet the same standards as our regular schools and to use the same accredited teachers, the non-religious portion of the educational experience should be pretty much the same across the board. So if this is just about education in the academic sense, why bother with special schools? Is it just more convenient to take your religious training in the same building as your regular classes? Or is it all about sectarian parents wanting schools to double as religious and social cocoons, reducing their kids' exposure to mainstream Canadian diversity in favour of a more homogeneous and ideologically controlled environment. Or maybe these same minorites feel taxpayers ought to be paying for the same specialized religious instruction they were previously paying for at expensive private schools. Whatever the reasons, this is asking our educational institutions to do more than simply educate our kids. This is about asking schools to take a greater role in socializing our kids than they ought to be taking. Religious instruction and social engineering are parental responsibilities. Leave the schools out of it.

Very well said.

 

[scouser1]

Short days 8 months a year, but you can retire early.......

OTB

short days? 8 months a year!! is a short day somewhere in the range of 12 hours to you? you must work in a sweatshop making stuff for Walmart

 

[someone]

short days? 8 months a year!! is a short day somewhere in the range of 12 hours to you? you must work in a sweatshop making stuff for Walmart

Most of the time, I work that long on weekdays and then some more on weekends.

BTW, I think one of the best ways to see if people are being overcomposated is to check the queue of people tying to get a position and what proportion quit. If many more people want a job than want to quit, they can't be doing bad. I don’t know what the numbers are for Ontario teachers but I suspect that on average, they don’t have trouble filling positions or people quiting. If I’m wrong, feel free to correct me as I don’t have statistics on this for teachers.

 

[Bearlythere]

There is a shortage of teachers to work with elementry kids, or at least male teachers. That said, I haven't picked up a paper that says we are running out of teachers. I would love to have a shortage, maybe that would mean a few who should have quit long ago did, and it would new blood into the profession.

 

[scouser1]

Most of the time, I work that long on weekdays and then some more on weekends.

BTW, I think one of the best ways to see if people are being overcomposated is to check the queue of people tying to get a position and what proportion quit. If many more people want a job than want to quit, they can't be doing bad. I don’t know what the numbers are for Ontario teachers but I suspect that on average, they don’t have trouble filling positions or people quiting. If I’m wrong, feel free to correct me as I don’t have statistics on this for teachers.

there is an around 30% rate of people leaving teaching within the first 5 years, I dare anyone to find a rate that high in any profession, bash all you want the vast majority of people could never do it.

 

[Von Wigglestaff]

Vote Progessive Conservative.

Support your local Scientology indoctrination center.

 

[someone]

there is an around 30% rate of people leaving teaching within the first 5 years, I dare anyone to find a rate that high in any profession, bash all you want the vast majority of people could never do it.

30% over the first 5 years sounds pretty low. First your biasing your statistic by only looking at the first 5 years. Young people are much more likely to change jobs. There is a matching process going on. 30% turnover over the first five years actually sounds really low to me, considering we are talking about the first five years after people graduate from school.

BTW, I just did a quick search and found this for turnover rates: “Stewart worked on a turnover project in Canada where monthly turnover rates ranged 2.3 to 4.2 percent overall which would be around 6.9 to 12.6 percent quarterly”, See http://doe.state.wy.us/lmi/0699/a2.htm. I’ll leave you to calculate the annual rate but remember that is number includes all workers and not just those at the start of their careers and over a much shorter time span.

Edit: I came across the following that reports labour turnover in Canada to be 26.3% and that’s an overall annual figure, not new employees over 5 years (see table 5.1 in the link). The numbers are a bit dated but I’ll leave you to find newer numbers, if you are interested. http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/27/2080575.pdf

 

[Asterix]

Most of the time, I work that long on weekdays and then some more on weekends.

BTW, I think one of the best ways to see if people are being overcomposated is to check the queue of people tying to get a position and what proportion quit. If many more people want a job than want to quit, they can't be doing bad. .

Interesting theory. Two years ago Walmart said it had received over 11,000 applications for it's Oakland store to fill only 400 positions, for crappy wages amd little or no health care. I wonder how many who did get the jobs would consider they are over-compensated.

 

[someone]

Interesting theory. Two years ago Walmart said it had received over 11,000 applications for it's Oakland store to fill only 400 positions, for crappy wages amd little or no health care. I wonder how many who did get the jobs would consider they are over-compensated.

If they thought they could do better elsewhere, I'm sure they would have gone elsewhere instead.

 

[Asterix]

If they thought they could do better elsewhere, I'm sure they would have gone elsewhere instead.

Not the point. You said that one of the best ways to guage if people are being over-compensated, is to compare the queue of those wanting the job as compared to those who quit. Sorry, ain't necessarily so.

 

[someone]

Not the point.

It is the point. You’re just having trouble understanding it.

You said that one of the best ways to guage if people are being over-compensated, is to compare the queue of those wanting the job as compared to those who quit. Sorry, ain't necessarily so.

Just because you say it’s not so, just not mean it is not so.

 

[very shy]

I never understood why people are oppossed to religious schools being funded with the purse that funds "Public" schools. The arguement seems to be that we have a school system that is good enough, why can't you send all kids there, we'll even let them have an hour or so per day of your religion class time. We don't think public funds should be used for religious (read accountable ethical system) purposes.

Last time I looked not only were public schools endocrinating kids in a secular ethic, but the parents are requiring that they do so at an increasing rate, taking the onus off them (something about not having enough time at home with their kids).

Religious education just gives a name and a particular set of behavural norms to an ethical way of looking at the world. No different than what Mr. McGuinty wants to do with his "Good Behaviours" course.

In addition whats the problem with letting me choose where to apply my kds edycation dollars. At this school or that, at home or in some other venue like someone elses home in Europe.

Tory has it almost right, at least he has it more right than the Liberal left who tolerate diversity in everyone, as long as everyone is like them or at least not too different. Then a single school system makes sense, but not if you agree that diversity is healthy.

 

[frankcastle]

Don't forget that you lot can retire mid 50's with the 85 full pension package while the paxpayers need to work for another 10 more years.

Just so you know the numbers the 85 factor you are referring to is the sum of the years you teach plus your age. The amount you collect is 2% x the number of teaching years. So to collect the max pension of 70% of your best 5 years you have to work a few years longer e.g. about 60 if you started at age 25. And don't forget that money is subtracted from their paycheques to help pay for the pension.

 

[frankcastle]

Yeah, pulse and c+ average.....

OTB

Go to any teacher's college in ontario and you'll find it's 70% or 75% average as the minumum.

At least get your facts straight.

 

[frankcastle]

Short days 8 months a year, but you can retire early.......

OTB

more like 9 months and change (sept to june minus 2 weeks at xmas and march break)

 

[frankcastle]

For the record I do also have some anti teacher feelings.

I think the Union protects the weak which allows people who shouldn't be there to stay. There's definitely some deadwood out there but at the same time I'm sure everybody has at least a couple of idiots at their job who they think should be fired (not that this justifies anything just pointing out that similar problems exist elsewhere).

As for a shortage. I don't think there is one. There are 10 teacher's colleges in ontario. That are probably producing a total of 10 000 grads (1000/college) but each school board probably hires well under 40 teachers (you might get 20 or so if a new school opens and then a few more based on retirements).

 

[train]

there is an around 30% rate of people leaving teaching within the first 5 years, I dare anyone to find a rate that high in any profession, bash all you want the vast majority of people could never do it.

Chatered Accountants working for a CA firm and lawyers would be about double that by design.

So where do these teachers go ? I understand it's difficult to get full time employment as a teacher right out of school - is that the problem?

 

[train]

Many different governments have done many studies to make our education system better. Many run by teachers and the teacher's unions. Few have ever acted much on them. One I know my Aunt worked on back in the days of Peterson. A lot of our tax money and a lot of time was spent on it. It got read then passed over. Lip service was done to some areas. The same has been happening since the days of Davis. Each party has had a some time in office. None have acted.

Ask teachers. Many of them are very very frustrated by the system. A great many children do not get the education they deserve. Much of this is due to the system, and NOT the teachers. I live around several schools and know a many teachers who give more than 8 hours a day. One guy I know starts at 7AM every day to prepare his classes, often attend meetings. After school he stays to run the Theater Arts club, and tutor some students that need special help. He arrives home usually about 7PM. Then dinner and marking papers. He calls it family time because his wife is also a teacher and she sits in the same room also making homework. Yet he does love it, and would not change his job for the world. He makes much less than myself or some of the other neighbours. He works does more than most teachers I think.

The thing is most teacher's want change, but the right sort of change. They want smaller class sizes to be able to give more individual time to each student, not just the dumbest and the smartest. They want more prep time. They want the children coming into their classes to be at the level they should be at.

The Union is not the problem. They push for better education. It is just that their views differed from Harris's. Like any other job the person who usually knows how to do it best and what they need to do a better job is the person who is doing the job. If our governments of all parties actually listened to the teachers we would have a much better system. Instead it is run by politicians and pencil pushers who are always trying to find something in it for themselves.

Not every school in Ontario is the same. We have some excellent schools and some really crappy ones. We have a real problem and I am as guilty as everyone else. Partisan politics. There were somethings Harris tried to do that were right. Standardized testing I agree on. I think he tried to bring in standardized report cards and this was a big success. I think he recognized that there was a real problem when a child moved. He was faced with a very different standard from board to board. He tried to cut the paper work but went about it the wrong way. He simply cut money without giving any direction other than cut the paperwork. Some school boards have very little paper, while others are so bogged down in it. He tried to bring in new text books, unfortunately they made a mega costly mistake. I think most remember the books that fell apart easily. He had more than one idiot Minister. For his part he knew that the education system could do better, and should do better for the money we were spending on it. He knew it had been studied to death. However he thought he knew better than all the studies by all the experts. His biggest mistake was making enemies of the teachers, and going after the unions. Any fool knows you have to work with what you have to improve things, not work against them.

As for Dalton he is typical of the Liberals, he blows with the wind. He wants to stay in power and is willing to do what is popular. He is now making the reverse mistake that Harris did, he is giving money to the boards without much direction as to how they are to use it. I wonder how much will be given to the boards that really do not need it that much as compared to those that do. For all the crisis that Harris brought in, I think he got many people looking at what was wrong with the system. Dalton I think is just going to send it back to the way it was. I think many teachers want a better system, but are must happy to be done with Harris. I know I am

Look , I agree with about 90% of what you wrote above.

The things I'm having a few problems on are :


If the teachers and their Union aren't running the sysytem and the Government is doing nothing then it leaves the individual Boards as the guilty parties in terms of lack of progress. Not sure I believe that totally because operationally they (Board) are mainly ex-treachers aren't they ? - although I'm not sure you could call the Toronto Board anything other than brain dead.


The Union is clearly the group with the most power.

 

[onthebottom]

Go to any teacher's college in ontario and you'll find it's 70% or 75% average as the minumum.

At least get your facts straight.

down here a 70% is a C......

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

more like 9 months and change (sept to june minus 2 weeks at xmas and march break)

It's sept to May (9 months), less 2 weeks for xmas (8.5 months) less a week for spring break (8.25 months) less 3 days at thanksgiving plus Presidents Day, plus Martin Luther King day.... 8 months might be generous.

OTB